Some of the most popular, well read, and commented upon posts on Dekalb County School Watch have revolved around redistricting. Posters have accused the county of trying to zone apartments into particular schools while leaving some schools with students primarily from single-family dwellings. Complaints have arisen about the feasibility of busing children to a new school while they can walk to their present school. Many others have expressed fears of property values declining. But worries about their children being zoned out of high performing schools into lower performing schools has arguably been the most constant and commented upon concern of parents.
Since many of the comments regarding redistricting have come from Fernbank parents who perceive that their children are being redistricted from a higher performing Fernbank to a lower performing Briar Vista, we’ve chosen to use the performance data of these two schools to gain some perspective. Fernbank was chosen as an example because of the volume of posts on the county online survey. Almost 1 out of 10 of the responses came from Fernbank, far more than any other school except Oak Grove. In addition, Fernbank comments have been numerous on the Dekalb County School Watch blog as well as Maureen Downey’s “Get Schooled” blog. Unfortunately, we don’t have the time or space on this blog to analyze each and every redistricting and consolidation scenario, but it is our hope that the following academic performance comparisons of these two schools will provide some guidance in using available objective data rather than relying on hearsay and opinions.
The statistics below are simply facts and figures, and in no way do they reflect on the emotions that are evoked when a child changes from one school to another. Any parent who has had a child change schools knows that changing schools is a tough experience. DCSS redistricting is not a decision that should be taken lightly and should ONLY be done in conjunction with cuts in areas OUTSIDE the classroom.
Parents need to ask that savings from cuts in the non-teaching areas are detailed and made public so they understand their children have not been sacrificed on the altar of jobs preservation. In addition, any savings that accrue from redistricting and consolidation need to be explained and made public with benchmarks established to show that this painful process has yielded and continues to yield savings that go DIRECTLY into the classroom for students.
2010 AYP numbers for Briar Vista and Fernbank show that among the test takers of the 2010 math and reading CRCT if you are Black, White or Asian, you will probably score equally well in either school.
Since no Hispanic students were listed in the Hispanic subgroup at Fernbank, no comparison was possible for Hispanic students.
The Economically Disadvantaged percentage being much higher at Briar Vista along with the greater ESOL population percentage appears to have had the effect of a 12% difference between Fernbank and Briar Vista in the OVERALL average for Math scores and an 9% difference in the OVERALL average for Reading scores.
Economically Disadvantaged refers to your number of students on Free and Reduced Price lunch, which generally equates to low-income households. ESOL (English Speakers of Other Languages) means you don’t speak the English language proficiently. For example, most of us non-Spanish speakers would not fare so well on a Spanish math or reading test if we had only lived in a Spanish speaking country for a year or two. Not enough information was given to say what the subgroup percentages are in either ESOL or Economically Disadvantaged.
=====
Look at the figures below for Briar Vista and Fernbank taken directly from the 2010 NCLB numbers on the state of Georgia DOE website. Be sure to check these numbers out for yourself. No one is perfect, and contrary to popular belief, this blog does not have a paid staff:
I. 2010 Test Scores:
A. Briar Vista:
1. Math Performance based on the CRCT:
82% of the students MEETS+EXCEEDS in Math.
The rates of MEETS+EXCEEDS for Black students is 81% and White students is 97% so both groups did well. The Hispanic rates of MEETS+EXCEEDS is 68%. The rate for MEETS+EXCEEDS for Asian/Pacific Islander students is 92%.
2. Reading Performance based on the CRCT:
89% of the students MEETS+EXCEEDS in Reading.
The rates of MEETS+EXCEEDS for Black students is 98% and White students is 96% so both groups did extremely well. The Hispanic rates of MEETS+EXCEEDS is 80%. The rate for MEETS+EXCEEDS for Asian/Pacific Islander students is 92%.
B. Fernbank:
1. Math Performance based on the CRCT:
94% of the students MEETS+EXCEEDS in Math.
The rates of MEETS+EXCEEDS for Black students is 83% and White students is 96% so both groups did well. The rate for MEETS+EXCEEDS for Asian/Pacific Islander students is 100%.
2. Reading Performance based on the CRCT:
98% of the students MEETS+EXCEEDS in Reading.
The rates of MEETS+EXCEEDS for Black students is 98% and White students is 99% so both groups did extremely well. The rate for MEETS+EXCEEDS for Asian/Pacific Islander students is 100%.
II. Diversity of the test takers:
A. Economically Disadvantaged: Fernbank: 18% Briar Vista: 54%
B. Students With Disabilities: Fernbank: 9% Briar Vista: 13%
C. Blacks students: Fernbank: 21% Briar Vista: 19%
D. White students: Fernbank: 53% Briar Vista: 28%
E. Asian/Pacific Islander: Fernbank: 18% Briar Vista: 9%
F. Multi Racial Students: Fernbank: 4% Briar Vista: 0%
G. Hispanic: Fernbank: 0% Briar Vista: 40%
H. ESOL: Fernbank: 9% Briar Vista: 25%
In conclusion, it appears that when comparing subgroups, Briar Vista can hold its own academically with Fernbank even though it has a greater number of ESOL students and a much greater number of Economically Disadvantaged students. I know this thread won’t allay all the concerns that Fernbank parents have. However, it is always prudent to look at the data in order to make a fair comparison. Perhaps that will resonate with some of the parents who read this blog.
BTW - I came away from this analysis very impressed with this little school tucked away in on tree lined Briar Vista Terrace. The administration, faculty, and parents of this small school deserve much respect, applause and support.
===
Many thanks to one of our regular contributors for digging into this data and providing the facts for this insightful report.
183 comments:
Can we get the same comparison between Lakeside and Druid Hills? I see no criticism of those parents at Lakeside who are upset at being moved to Druid Hills but much directed toward Fernbank.
Thanks for posting this information. Based on these numbers Briar Vista is a good school.
We can work on the Druid Hills/Lakeside comparison. FWIW, as I understand it, Druid HIlls has a terrific IB program - Lakeside offers a lot of AP classes (so does Druid Hills). Anecdotally, I do know of one student who had a terrible time at Lakeside and transferred to Druid Hills - where she became a Governor's Honors Award Winner. I think they are very similar schools academically, they just have different personalities. The folks in the Leafmore neighborhood (as far as I can tell) simply want to stay at Lakeside because it's closer - and all of the kids are friends. (Literally, some of these students from Leafmore could ride a bike to Lakeside or even walk...) I haven't heard anyone say that they felt Druid Hills was academically inferior. (Maybe a random person here or there, but that is not the neighborhood 'stance')
I think this micro-analysis of two ESes fairly encapsulates the realities I have seen in DeKalb schools and related politics. The instruction at many of our schools is better than we might think looking at the macro test scores. When additional factors are isolated, the performance of "like" students seems to be fairly equitable across our schools - at least, this is what I have seen in CK area schools vs others.
Briar Vista seems to be in the same boat as CK area schools in that the real issue is not quality of instruction but rather the perception of that quality.
The reduction of the arguments against schools like Briar Vista and CK area schools seems to me to be the theories about peer influences on academics. The idea is that "smart" kids need other "smart" kids to raise their level of effort. I think there is some merit to this argument but I question whether it really matters.
I question this because I want to ask, "How many other smart kids does a given smart kid need to have as a peer?" In a class of twenty, must all kids be in the 95th percentile on tests to create this atmosphere of high learning? Is half the class enough? A quarter? If my "smart" kid has two other "smart" kids in his or her class, is that enough? I suspect that the reality is that a "smart" kid needs only one good teacher and a handful of peers to reach the high level of learning we are talking about.
I think these circumstances are present at virtually all of our ESes. There are differences but I just do not think this is one of them ...
As a parent who had a child at Lakeside, pulled the child out and won't let another go-I've got friends at Druid Hills who are very happy there --it has been much more stable over the past decade--much less turn over in administration and their IB program is supposed to be terrific, very challenging, stable and well respected with low class sizes. I think Lakesside has a few years to go to stability --it has had 4 principals in 7 or 8 years and has been in a state of chaos in my opinion. That said, there is an alumni attachment to the school that can not be explained on a rational basis. Kids who survive there (watch the numbers -- the 9th grade always has numbers north of 500 and the 12th grade always graduates south of 300) survive becuase they can self teach, are super smart, have tutors or are able to survive by having gotten the "right teachers" and "classes" -- it's a tough environment for most (I refer you back to the numbers -- there is a 50%+ fail rate for most in freshman year). If you make it, it's a great place. There's a strong sentimental attachment to it and real estate values reflect a strong value based on a tremendous reputation (e.g. the fact that it appeared in Atlanta Magazine and shows well in US News & World Report based on a high number of AP offerings that aren't evaluated for quality) -- expereience wise for your child -- my belief is you are probably better off at DHHS -- now, how do you handle that, particularly coupled with a concern that you are being split from your underlying elementary feeder school? You probably hope that your real estate value catches up with your improved home value with DHHS's reputation improving once you and your child get there but that's not the bill you were sold when you bought your home and that's not your firmly held views as an alum with this really, truly, bizzare Stepford Wives attachment to LHS.
To Kim's comments -- following the gifted thread from before, the truly gifted kids need enough of a "critical mass" of other gifted kids that the school and principal provide true gifted services with a gifted coordinator who "gets it" with appropriate gifted services -- the whole population does not need to be gifted -- in fact, in my opinion, and my experience with my brother, my cousin and my father -- all of whom are in the "extra-ordinarily gifted" category and are not as successful as I am -- it is critical that they be challenged at a level that teaches them how to work and how to apply themselves and that they learn how to get along with others who are not like themselves and may not be as bright as them so they can function in the real world (which has been my absolute mission with my own children -- particularly my 99.9th kid -- we constantly speak about his need for people skills since he seems to have a work ethic). It appears that there are places in the county not doing both.
To be clear, I am not really addressing the "gifted" category in my comments above. By definition, the gifted child is a rarity and really should be treated as such in terms of instruction and methodologies used to push them to achieve (gifted <> achieving). Even so, if we look at just the top 5% of "IQ"-type or aptitude testing in DCSS, we're talking about 1600 high school age children. Surely the "High Achievers" magnet could become truly extraordinary if they offered a true gifted program in a four-year school.
Putting aside the "gifted" category, the 75% achievers include something like 8,000 high schoolers. If we had the dozen or so high schools we should have rather than twenty-something, that would mean over six hundred from this group on average in a high school.
I think there are plenty of "smart" kids to go around in DeKalb - we just need to provide them a the resources at each school and they will do the rest with their teachers.
So next there needs to be an programmatic comparison....is a foreign candidate offered at each school or are funds necessarily directed at ESOL services at one school precluding offerings of the other?
IB offers character development and whole world application s and there are across course links to thematic issues built in in order to meet standard s. Program reviews are done by an international team to ensure appropriate curriculum and application. So, an agency outside dekalb is a watchdog so to speak. Is anything like this in place at BV?
I am in neither district, but do understand concerns relating to equity in programming. Is BV making its scores by teaching to the test? With external review, an IB program cannot.
The system should commit to adequate programming at all sites. How will the admin.ensure that students will not have reduced access to programs if they move? This is particularly true for kids being moved to Clarkston.
Meant language, not candidate...
That's an excellent point -- you definitely need to see if they are teaching to the test versus something like IB, which has the external oversigt component (one of the reasons I would argue DHHS may be better than LHS). On the other hand, for the parents being shifted out, the "compromise" could be an insistence that BV implement IB, which could then, arguably bring the schools into a parity situation - or for folks wanting a different ethnic mix, BV could mix up the ethnic mix but you could get IB at either place so the academics for the children being shifted could be the same (and, yes, the "fogotten" ones in this discussion are those at Medlock and Livsey).
Cere, Thanks so much for the data! I sure wish this blog had been around when Clew tried his infamous redistricting plan 4 years ago. DCSS never once considered any data, except the amount of money that DCSS would receive from Sembler, for the Druid Hills Rd. property. The economy took care of that development.
The big problem with Clew's plan then was that the parents at Nancy Creek had discovered there had been no discussions with the county planning department, regarding Vernon Jones Vision plan and how many parts of the county were being rezoned for multi-family dwellings. Of course, now we see how that's working out currently with the centralized plan of re-opening Nancy Creek as a PK-5 school.
Because of the past, the perception is DCSS ignores the stakeholders. Ms. Tyson must regain the respect of the stakeholders, by coming out with ALL the details of this plan. The fact MGT was not ready with the financials, when they presented this plan, was ludicrous. It showed me how contempt the DCSS leadership has for the people that provide the funds for their use.
Ms. Tyson I ask again, where is the 2004 audit that has been hidden from PUBLIC view? Why has the Central Office been immune from any austerity cuts that the school house and teachers have suffered through the past two years? Why hasn't anything improved at DCSS, while spending millions of dollars on a very ineffective office of improvement?
Cere, Great data! I celebrate the leadership, teachers, parents and students at Briar Vista! You've done remarkable work!
Also, forgot, something needs to be done for training or revamp to get the kids going to Clarkston, a good education....
Anyone could probably do a freedom of information request to both DCSS and to Ernst & Young for the 2004 salary audit we keep asking about and then we could post a link on the blog... anyone want to take it on? A Fernbank lawyer maybe? We have some folks who are really good with data analysis at the blog who could then do a then and now analysis with the numbers and our "success factors." Could be really interesting....
PS some history-- Terry Morris wanted (insisted that) Paul Womack should re-run for school board-- she then ran his campaign so he could fix the issues she left undone and that got messed up in the inbetween-- e.g. Sagamore not all going to Lakeside --the message was "let's return LHS what it was before middle schools" -- there were people in the 4th who really believed that was possible.
@ 11:02
So now that achievement differential is not the issue, are you looking for another issue to take its place?
Please remember that DCSS is a PUBLIC school system funded with taxpayer dollars. If you want every program at every school to be equal, then cut out all special programs, magnets, etc. and have the basics at every school with reasonably sized classes. After that, provide art, music, gifted, special ed and PE for ALL students at EVERY school. That will provide equity for every student in our PUBLIC school system.
Briar Vista has much diversity in culture, race, and income level. They have top rate performance scores that would indicate that subgroups in Fernbank compare equally to subgroups in Briar Vista. I would love for my child to go to a school that is as successful academically as Briar Vista and yet has that diversity.
I think we would be well served and much better off if we "cut out all special programs, magnets, etc. and have the basics at every school with reasonably sized classes. After that, provide art, music, gifted, special ed and PE for ALL students at EVERY school. That will provide equity for every student in our PUBLIC school system." I think that should be how the system works - I think that is how it is supposed to work. If you can't get what you need beyond that, then you go private. The only exceptions (and perhaps I open a can of worms here) is you consider adding in North Springs type magnets in the north and south ends of the county as part of already existing high schools in both Math/Science and the Arts -- exactly the way North Springs has successfully already done it so you can cover those kids who really need those services and you maintain and grow the CK tech program and one just like it in the South. And there you have it, my perfect system -- you flatten administration to get there.
2009 5th Grade CRCT
BRIAR VISTA
Reading
Does not meet standard 15.8%
Meets or exceeds standard 84.2%
ELA
Does not meet standard 10.8%
Meets or exceeds standard 84.5%
Math
Does not meet standard 33.3%
Meets or exdeeds standard 66.7%
Science
Does not meet standard 51.3%
Meets or exceeds standard 48.7%
Social Studies
Does not meet standard 52.6 %
Meets or exceeds standard 47.4%
FERNBANK
Reading
Does not meet standard 2.1%
Meets or exceeds standard 97.9%
ELA
Does not meet standard 1.1%
Meets or exceeds standard 98.9%
Math
Does not meet standard 11.6%
Meets or exceeds standard 88.4%
Science
Does not meet standard 5.3%
Meets or exceeds standard 94.7%
Social Studies
Does not meet standard 5.3%
Meets or exceeds standard 94.7%
And how do you teach the "inner city" kids -- watch the Hobart project and the Freedom Writers Project and give the teachers the freedom to teach that way & have a truly incredible grant writer on staff to get them the funding to go there.... Use the title 1 funds on humans for individual, regular help and set up a mentoring program with teams of folks paired between individual schools and businesses, law firms, accounting and engineering firms --include local universities too (each firm/college adopts a school for regular on-going reading and math tutoring and mentoring) and maybe throw in a professional ball player/rap or movie-tv star as a "cheerleader" per school to appear quarterly to motivate the kids to work hard to learn, progress and stay in school, off the streets, off drugs, single and remain without children, etc. and kill off all of the expensive programs, machines and equipment that are impersonal and walk out the door. I dream too big I think.
Why do >10% of Fernbank ES 5th graders not meet the VERY LOW CRCT math standard? This is shocking, given the student population (highly educated, affluent families). None of our schools is really good enough. Some are just less poor than others.
Thank you for doing this data mining and analysis. This is very helpful.
The way I read these numbers, Briar Vista is "not as bad" as advertised and Fernbank is "not as good" as advertised. Fernbank scores higher. But both schools have a lot of room for improvement.
As Cere posted a few days ago (referring to magnets), neither of these schools is "all that".
Fernbank's response rate to the DCSS survey is amazing. (One out of ten district wide!) This is clearly a community that is engaged in their school and the system. It's a shame not all school communities are this involved.
@ Anon 12:38 Believe it or not, there are actually some schools and administrators that discourage parental involvement. Or, rather, I should say, they like parents to do what they want them to do, but they don't want activist parents who are advocating for change and improvement. I have the feeling this is the case in more schools than we would like to believe. I don't trust our administration to have any oversight over our principals, and I think many are comfortable in their quiet ruts with their $100+ salaries. A bad principal is a huge roadblock to school success and parental enthusiasm.
On the subject of making sure that smart kids have enough smart peers in their classes, what about those of lesser ability? They benefit greatly from having a mix of abilities in the classroom--those of similar ability with whom they feel comfortable and "smarter" kids who are able to more easily master the material.
Yeah, I know that most on this blog are parent of higher achieving kids--after all, parental involvement is a huge factor in student success. But as a society/school system--however you want to frame it--we need to figure out how to bring the less capable up to the level where they can be productive. They are our future citizens, too.
As for "Gifted," I teach these kids, and it concerns me how many tested into the program in third grade and are still in Gifted in high school. What looks like giftedness in elementary school may just be advanced early development, which is no longer part of the equation years later. Yet those kids are still in Gifted classes b/c we do not reevaluate them.
About 2/3 of the "Gifted" kids I teach simply do not have the intellectual capabilites or creativity of "Gifted" high school students. They hold back the ones who are actually gifted. Sorry but it's the hard truth.
My point in all of this is that those kids--rather than watering down the Gifted program--could play a role in a regular classroom by challenging their less able peers. Most of the research supports this. Just one more part of the equity equation.
I am going after one of the golden eggs in the room, but here it is.
It was clear last year that Ms. Tyson had data showing that Montessori wasn't working very well. She was very concerned about Montessori and whether it was working or not. Having been at the budget meeting where the board put Montessori back in, you could see the pained look on her face.
Midway Elementary (houses Montessori) was near the very bottom of test scores in the state this year. In 5th grade, they may have been the lowest, excluding a few specialized programs for students with disabilities.
Until this year, Briar Vista has only had Montessori. Only time will tell what happens now that there is another option.
Opps, not Tyson but Talley.
Cere, Fernbank is an IB school. Briarvista is Montesorri school. The differences in these two philosophies are just as large a difference as DHHS and LHS, perhaps more.
"Briar Vista seems to be in the same boat as CK area schools in that the real issue is not quality of instruction but rather the perception of that quality."
Thanks Kim. As usual, you are the voice of reason in a sea of emotion.
@Anon 11:39
LOVE IT! From your dreams to DCSS's ears.
It can be viewed as right or wrong, but regardless of the schools not only parents but students have strong emotional attachments. Everyone is going to have to stay aware, look at the data carefully and pay attention not only to the DCSS but also to the state. State funding will have an impact on every school.
This is just my opinion, but I wonder how much funding from the state and other sources did we lose because the people in charge of the school system did not keep their eye on the things that were important. We are all paying for that now. For the last few years as the economic climate was changing, we should have begun the kind of talks that are going on now. I do not mean this blog. I mean our leaders.
Ms Tyson does have an impossible task ahead of her. Whatever decisions are finally made, someone is going to be hurt.
From someone who did buy a house in a certain area because of the school, it is a terrible feeling to think that you could now be sent to another school. Regardless of how great the other school may be. It was not our choice. DeKalb seems that it is in for another hard time. Once decisions are made we are going to have to all try to work as a group, support our students and staff in the schools that are impacted. As always, these are the people on the front line. Let us pray that the right, just and honest decisions will be made.
PS. It sure is getting cold outside today. I pray that we all keep our lights and our heat.
Anon 11am: "The fact MGT was not ready with the financials, when they presented this plan, was ludicrous."
I respectfully view it differently - the amount of data gathered, analyzed and put into the document record in the past couple of months exceeds anything I've seen in two years. These are two alternative recommendations on how to optimize enrollment vis-a-vis capacity.
I hope and expect to see some financial analysis ahead of any votes taken on these alternatives.
As usual, I used a lot of words when all I was trying to communicate is that MGT and DCSS are moving VERY fast and it does not surprise me that the financial side is not complete.
A bit on the tangent with this comment but ... is anyone else wondering if the fact that MGT must break-up the county into "super clusters" or whatever they're calling it is just another sign that "one" DeKalb system is to big to manage effectively in the planning and management process?
I hope that whatever decision is made by the board has the greatest benefit for ALL children of DCSS. I realize that parents don't want things happening in their backyard, but when you look at what is happening to the district as a whole, something has got to change and from the stats that I see NO school is ALL that, and there is improvement to be had across the board.
@ Anonymous 11:36
Posters please take a look for yourself (website links to this data are listed below).
This is not a valid comparison since the disaggregated subgroups of Hispanic, Black, Asian/Pacific Islander cannot be compared between Briar Vista and Fernbank in the 5th grade CRCT since none of those students have enough numbers to be quantified as a subgroup in BOTH schools.
Take a look at the ONLY subgroup (White) that is detailed in BOTH Fernbank and Briar Vista in the 5th grade CRCT:
A. Reading
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard: 100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard: 100%
B. Language Arts:
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets Standard: 100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard:0%
Meets or exceeds standard: 100%
C. Math:
Briar Vista
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets Standard: 100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 4%
Meets Standard: 96%
D. Social Studies:
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets Standard: 100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 7%
Meets Standard: 93%
E. Science:
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets Standard: 100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 6%
Meets Standard: 94%
Posters go to the 5th Grade CRCT score website if you're interested in the other subgroups for Fernbank and Briar Vista. ALL subgroups performed quite well EXCEPT the Limited English Proficiency (ESOL) group.
This is EXACTLY what the author of this thread pointed out - the higher ESOL population in Briar Vista has the effect of causing a disparity between Fernbank and Briar Vista OVERALL academic test scores. But if you can speak and read the English language, the scores are very good for all groups.
How many posters would like to take a literacy test written in Spanish a year after you arrive in a South American country?
Website link for Briar Vista 5th grade CRCT score:
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&SchoolId=23044&T=1&FY=2010
Website link for Fernbank:
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&SchoolId=23014&T=1&FY=2010
I fully agree that change is destined everywhere. My comments on the IB issue earlier today were meant to highlight the fact that some of this programming, particularly IB, is good because there is an EXTERNAL agency monitoring curriculum, teaching approach, and, at least in PYP programs, affects all children at the school. It also requires that some of the additional programming occurs (such as foreign language, etc.). So, I'd like to see the county look closely at this model, at least at the elementary level, and try to extend the thinking behind it to the elementary schools. I see the scores that Cere posted across these two particular schools as indicative that there is much similarity. However, the science and social studies scores at BV indicate, to me, that critical thinking and breadth of programmning is NOT being met there to the degree it is at F. I wonder how much is due to the foundational philosophies promoted (and required) by IB. Given the total differences in scores from reading and math to science and social studies at BV, if I were a parent in that area I would be VERY concerned that there is a lot of focus on teaching to the test. And, quite frankly, I don't give much merit to the CRCT as a predictor of success. What are the ITBS numbers across the two schools?
While I agree that equity of programming should be the goal, what I would prefer is equity in QUALITY programming. The fact that BOTH models presented have as their foundation the importance of the magnet HIGH ACHIEVER programs (caps = sarcasm here) indicates to me that neither the administration nor the consultants have as a goal equity of programming and resources across the district.
@ 1:15. RE giftedness. It scares me that you indicate that you "teach" this group. Research indicates that by 3rd grade the leveling out of advanced early development with peers will have occurred. So, kids identified as gifted after 3rd grade should have these abilities as their educational careers advance. What can kill some of the elements (such as desire and drive and creativity)used to identify giftedness? Well, lack of challenge and low expectations and a total lack of freedom to be creative because we have to bring up those who won't succeed on "The Test" as we develop and administer curriculum can certainly have an impact.
I'm mortified that you are presumably "gifted certified" if you teach this population but appear to be so completely unaware of their needs at these lower levels. You want them kept in with low performing peers because they can be "used" to "challenge" their peers if kept in mixed population classrooms. My question to you is, where is the challenge and motivation for the gifted kids in your equation, or are they simply tools that teachers can use to help those who are really the concerns to you and our county and our state and, most definitely, our federal government. Forget about the needs of these kids, just use them as teaching tools. Please, where do you teach? I want to make sure my kids are never in your class.
@ Anonymous 1:19
Talley may have been concerned about Midway's performance, but there was ample evidence that Briar Vista and Huntley Hills were exceeding expectations. Attempting to cancel the entire public Montessori program instead of drilling down on what was going on at Midway is an example of-- sadly unsurprising--poor analysis.
A recent study in Science showed just how successful a public Montessori program can be:
"A 2006 study published in the journal "Science" concluded that Montessori students (at ages 5 and 12) performed better than control students who had lost a random computerized lottery to attend a Montessori school and instead went to a variety of different conventional schools. This improved performance was achieved in a variety of areas, including not only traditional academic areas such as language and math, but in social skills as well (though by age 12 academic benefits had largely disappeared).[60]
On several dimensions, children at a public inner city Montessori school had superior outcomes relative to a sample of Montessori applicants who, because of a random lottery, attended other schools. By the end of kindergarten, the Montessori children performed better on standardized tests of reading and math, engaged in positive interaction on the playground more, and showed advanced social cognition and executive control more. They also showed more concern for fairness and justice. At the end of elementary school, Montessori children wrote more creative essays with more complex sentence structures, selected more positive responses to social dilemmas, and reported feeling more of a sense of community at their school.
The authors concluded that, "when strictly implemented, Montessori education fosters social and academic skills that are equal or superior to those fostered by a pool of other types of schools."
Lillard A, Else-Quest N (September 2006). "The early years. Evaluating Montessori education". Science 313 (5795): 1893–4. doi:10.1126/science.1132362"
(excerpted from Wikipedia)
Part 1 of Post:
@ Anonymous 11:36
This is not a valid comparison. Posters please take a look for yourself (website links to this data are listed below).
Comparing the 5th grade CRCT, there is only one subgroup (White) that has enough members in the 5th grade to compare between Fernbank and Briar Vista. That is to say, Black and Asian may have enough numbers to be considered a subgroup and results posted on one website, but not on the other. Hispanic many have enough numbers to be considered a subgroup and results posted on one website, but not on the other.
Look at the results of the only subgroup that gives results for the 2010 5th grade for BOTH Fernbank and Briar Vista:
Reading:
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard:100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard:100%
ELA (Language Arts):
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard:100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard:100%
Math:
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard:100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 4%
Meets or exceeds standard: 96%
Social Studies:
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard:100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 7%
Meets or exceeds standard: 93%%
Science:
Briar Vista:
Does not meet standard: 0%
Meets or exceeds standard:100%
Fernbank:
Does not meet standard: 6%
Meets or exceeds standard: 94%
We at Briar Vista warmly welcome everyone to our school. We have a loving and successful learning environment which we're happy to share with any and all. Come see us some time!
@ anonymous 11:36
When we look at all of the other subgroups (Asian, Hispanic, Black, Multi Racial, etc) that appear on one or the other school’s website, they did well and fairly well except the Limited English Proficiency subgroup (ESOL students) and to a lesser extent the Economically Disadvantaged group.
As the author of this thread pointed out, the ESOL group and to a lesser extent the Economically Disadvantaged Group caused the disparity in achievement in the OVERALL scores between Fernbank and Briarlake.
Comparing apples to apples, Briar Vista and Fernbank students go toe to toe in achievement scores.
BTW: How many posters would like to take a literacy test written in Spanish a year after they moved to a South American country?
Here is the website link to the Fernbank 5th grade CRCT scores:
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&SchoolId=23014&T=1&FY=2010
Here is the website link to the Briar Vista 5th grade CRCT scores:
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&SchoolId=23044&T=1&FY=2010
When we look at all of the other subgroups (Asian, Hispanic, Black, Multi Racial, etc) that appear on one or the other school’s website, they did well and fairly well except the Limited English Proficiency subgroup (ESOL students) and to a lesser extent the Economically Disadvantaged group.
As the author of this thread pointed out, the ESOL group and to a lesser extent the Economically Disadvantaged Group caused the disparity in achievement in the OVERALL scores between Fernbank and Briarlake.
Comparing apples to apples, Briar Vista and Fernbank students go toe to toe in achievement scores.
BTW: How many posters would like to take a literacy test written in Spanish a year after they moved to a South American country?
Here is the website link to the Fernbank 5th grade CRCT scores:
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&SchoolId=23014&T=1&FY=2010
Here is the website link to the Briar Vista 5th grade CRCT scores:
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&SchoolId=23044&T=1&FY=2010
@ anonymous 4:37
"particularly IB....I'd like to see the county look closely at this model, at least at the elementary level, and try to extend the thinking behind it to the elementary schools. "
By the time the IB student reaches Druid Hills, the class size is down to less than 20 students while the Central Office and the BOE have raised high school class sizes in regular education to 36 students citing the "budget crunch".
Please support "slimming down" the admin and support over payment and numbers. Then perhaps we can move on to funding good programs in DCSS.
Talley was worried about Briar Vista as well.
This is troubling though...
"though by age 12 academic benefits had largely disappeared"
In addition, until this year, every child had to be in Montessori at BV, whether their parents wanted it or not. The study is based on students whose parents placed them into a lottery. That action alone guarantees some improvements.
I am really not picking on Montessori, I am just saying that part of the explanation for the test scores might just be Montessori.
@ anonymous 6:12
"Talley was worried about Briar Vista as well"
LOL
Talley has such a great reputation because she REALLY impacted instruction and achievement in DCSS. That must be why we ACHIEVED such a steep DECLINE in scores.
4:49, sorry, but many of my Gifted students read and write below grade level. How that happened I don't know--and I am not going to point fingers at elementary or middle school teachers, as I am not aware of what programs/resources were in place.
I just know that I spend a lot of time working to bring them up to par instead of being able to meet them where they should be and challenge them to do the incredible things of which truly gifted kids are capable.
You can decry the concerns of the county, state, or federal government, but the bottom line is that our continuing to cater to the best and ignore the needs of others is short sighted. If your kids plan to live in this area, you had better worry about the others with whom they will share the space!
I am not suggesting that GIFTED kids be "used." The ones who have always been labeled as Gifted but who are now below grade level need to be placed into a lower level class. Sorry--it sucks, but that's what is best for all concerned.
There is solid research to support including mixed ability levels in a classroom--not to use anyone as a teaching tool, but to create an atmosphere that more closely mirrors the world at large. And yes, being in contact with those of higher ability benefits some who were never taught the value of learning. SO sorry to disappoint your elitist sensibilities, but it is my job to teach those kids, too.
Parents of kids whose older siblings were in my class routinely request that their other children be taught by me. I have no doubt as to my ability to serve those who ARE Gifted!
Midway is split, with most of the school being traditional and a section for Montessori. However, if the data supports it, then perhaps Midway has a population not suited for Montessori. Students may not leave traditional to go to Montessori, but many have gone from Montessori to traditional because their personalities did not mesh well with the Montessori approach.
wow this surprised me- Thanks! It puts BVE in a whole new light! Plus it sounds like the diversity is wonderful.
To be clear, BVE now has two tracks. Traditional and Montessori so you basically get a choice there. You are not forced into Montessori., IN addition, in the past, parents were allowed to opt out of BVE if they did not want Montessori to another school of choice.
Wow - I just looked at the survey. While it is great fernbank had 180 people respond. BVE had 120. There school is 1/2 as big as Fernbank.
So there response was 400/120 (30%) where fernbank was 700/180 (26%). They had more involvement!
why is Fernbank always getting the accolades? They have twice as many kids as most other schools.
Looks like BVE parents are just as active if not more than Fernbank.
Thanks for this article - its amazing how public perception can be so different from reality until numbers are put in front of you.
I feel sorry for BVE that they are getting dragged through the mud by Fernbank. They are a good little school.
Now I wish I was going to BVE
It will be interesting to see if Ramona Tyson has the moxie to implement this level of restructuring district-wide. I wonder if she will have the nerve to place Arabia in service as a neighborhood school and use it to alleviate over-crowding at SW DeKalb as well as stop the wasteful spending on unnecessary additions to MLK and Miller Grove as Arabia could relieve that slight over-crowding as promised when first approved. I will also be curious as to whether she will scale back the administration - especially those charged with academic improvement who have spent millions yet failed miserably. In addition, I am most curious to see how she rewrites the student transfer policy. Will she write something that cleverly continues to allow central office and other staff to choose any school they wish for their child?
We'll be watching.
BVE is a great little school. Do you think the Fernbank parents who are so against this school have even gone there to observe classes being taught? Hang in there Briar Vista!
"Do you think the Fernbank parents who are so against this school have even gone there to observe classes being taught? "
Fernbank parents are NOT "against" Briar Vista - please stop this stupidity. Fernbank parents have committed themselves to the IB curriculum and wish to continue with that. Just like the Briar Vista parents did when the county was examining whether or not to continue the Montessori programs.
@ 8:09 pm
"Fernbank parents have committed themselves to the IB curriculum and wish to continue with that."
So now it is "we can't be rezoned because we can't leave the IB program".
As I understand the "public" school system, achievement is the covenant established with parents, not special programs. Briar Vista has more than proved it can meet the achievement objectives of students.
Fernbank parents aren't really concerned about the data showing achievement numbers are the same for subgroups for Briar Vista and Fernbank.
Working behind the scenes influencing the process is their forte.
They've made up their minds, so don't influence the public with the facts.
Although occasionally, someone has left a comment stating that Briar Vista is inferior to Fernbank, it is not the official position of the Fernbank PTA. Obviously, as this post points out, there is very little difference in how students of like backgrounds perform at either school. However, Fernbank parents are interested (as I interpreted the letter) in maintaining their FTE credits so as to keep the same high number of teachers and specials - not dilute them by sending some students to Briar Vista (ie: taking FTE from Fernbank).
The whole point of this redistricting exercise is to balance enrollments so that ALL schools can recover their full FTE credit from the state. The minimum number for elementary is 450 students (optimum is between 600-900) in order to start receiving credits for specials - like art, music and PE.
That said, while I understand Fernbank's position (along with the statement that they have worked hard to place an IB program in the school, which of course, will remain), the bigger issue is - what is DCSS to do? What do you do when SOME schools have optimal numbers for full FTE credits and specials while others remain unable to capture even the most basics. Is it equitable? There are two sides of this story. One is more clear to you, depending on which side of the fence you live. Do you live in Fernbank with 689 students and want to keep all the wonderful, fully funded specials or do you live in nearby BriarVista which struggles with an enrollment of only 386 to recover even ONE point for additional staff? Yes, myopically, Fernbank deserves all it currently captures in funding - but who pays the price? Those who live with under-enrollment and do not receive the same level of funding.
Can you see the bigger issue? DeKalb is an enormous school system. Although many of our elementary schools are small, we have to manage to educate nearly 100,000 children - and to do it equitably across the county. That is the goal. Sadly, some who have enjoyed full funding for specials, may have to give up some to others who have lived with much less for so long.
This is also why we really need to reassess the magnets and other special programs -- as Ms Tyson likes to say - "forensically".
It's time, people. It really is.
Having a special program in your school does not always equate to more specials or perks. I sat with a woman from Midvale at the meet-your-legislator event earlier in the fall, and she said Midvale (an IB school) does not have music or gifted and that IB was almost useless because there was no more IB county coordinator. So, if this is true, it sounds like schools with special choice programs are not necessarily the schools that have everything while those without special programs suffer. It isn't the special programs that cause all of the inequity - it's bad management of the entire system.
"Specials" - as referred to by the state for FTE funding - include art teachers, music teachers, PE teachers, Assistant Principals, etc -
Special programs are something altogether different.
"The whole point of this redistricting exercise is to balance enrollments so that ALL schools can recover their full FTE credit from the state. The minimum number for elementary is 450 students (optimum is between 600-900) in order to start receiving credits for specials - like art, music and PE."
I have recently heard that this is a misinterpretation of the QBE funding formula and that Joe Martin is going to address this at the next ELPC meeting. The 450 number is not an absolute threshold for state funding.
I don't know about Joe Martin's info, but according to Lynn Jackson from the state DOE, the minimum necessary to get basic FTE credit in elementary school is 200 (MS - 400 and HS - 500). For more, read Dunwoody Mom's notes from the meeting with Lynn Jackson back in October.
DCSS Budget, Finance and Facilities Meeting 10-21-10
@ 6:30. You specifically state: "On the subject of making sure that smart kids have enough smart peers in their classes, what about those of lesser ability? They benefit greatly from having a mix of abilities in the classroom--those of similar ability with whom they feel comfortable and "smarter" kids who are able to more easily master the material."
My question to you is - how does this challenge the kids who already understand the material and who are bored by going over the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. time???
You think I'm an elitist because I want my child to receive services that are challenging in elementary school so that they don't burn out through boredom by middle school, and become that child who no longer should be in the gifted program.
You have misjudged. I have kids on both ends of the spectrum and volunteer and provide much at my LOCAL school. What I see is a consistent misconception that gifted kids can figure things out themselves and have no need for additional curriculum supplements, the perspective to which you appear to adhere.m Nowhere in your post do you recognize that gifted kids who are in those mixed settings who are NOT receiving gifted services are JUST as at risk...Do you know depression rates, suicide rates, drop out rates for gifted kids? Have you done that research? You aren't interested in knowing why or how a gifted kid would come to you with a below average skill set? Would you be interested in solving that problem if a student moved from a C to failing?
I tend to think that teachers are overworked and have expectations placed on them that are unreasonable. I used to think that all kids mattered. Perhaps it is just too much work, for teachers, for governments, for the system, to want kids at ALL levels to reach their full potential.
"That said, while I understand Fernbank's position (along with the statement that they have worked hard to place an IB program in the school, which of course, will remain), the bigger issue is - what is DCSS to do? What do you do when SOME schools have optimal numbers for full FTE credits and specials while others remain unable to capture even the most basics. Is it equitable?"
Briar Vista has art and PE as well as teachers dedicated to either Montessori or traditional curriculum. I bet if you dig into the cost of Montessori vs IB the Montessori curriculum is definitely more expensive. So I don't see that Briar Vista is losing out by not having 60+ additional students to "balance" enrollment.
It is true that DCSS tends to exaggerate the difference between a school with a FTE of 375 and one with 450, but neither is really very efficient if you want your elementary kids to have a full range of specials.
An FTE count of 450 gives you a media specialist fully reimbursed from the state. But if you have 350 you earn a portion of those funds.
It takes about 375 elementary school students grades 1-5 (kindergarten doesn't count) to earn ONE special. Once you hit that number, you start on the second special.
One of the issues not being discussed is the impact on instruction of schools losing 100s of students. These schools will lose the extras that many parents value.
"I don't know about Joe Martin's info . . "
Joe Martin wrote the law establishing the QBE formula.
It is important to remember that the Briar Vista parents have fought long and hard twice to keep Montessori.
They, more than anyone, should understand if the Fernbank parents value IB.
What Joe Martin thinks he knows is irrelevant.
Anon 9:05 PM - it's not even so much about "going without" as it is - DCSS has to fund these extras with local funds - not state FTE funding. If you're willing - we could raise property taxes to pay for it!
"One of the issues not being discussed is the impact on instruction of schools losing 100s of students. These schools will lose the extras that many parents value."
And those small schools who gain the 100s will gain what they have been without. Why not equalize services for all students in the public school system?
BTW - the ELPC meeting is Wednesday, January 19th at 8:45 at Hawthorne ES.
@ anonymous 9:08
"It is important to remember that the Briar Vista parents have fought long and hard twice to keep Montessori.
They, more than anyone, should understand if the Fernbank parents value IB."
DCSS parents in high achieving schools do not get to choose the schools their children go to. If the public school they are zoned "out of" offers high achievement and the one they are zoned "into" offers high achievement, then that is what happens when you choose schools funded with taxpayer money. If they want a specific curriculum, then Fernbank or Briar Vista parents need to opt for private school.
"Anon 9:05 PM - it's not even so much about "going without" as it is - DCSS has to fund these extras with local funds - not state FTE funding. If you're willing - we could raise property taxes to pay for it!"
Because this thread is about a Ferbank/Briar Vista comparison and has become an anti-Fernbank thread I'm simply making the contrast between these two schools. Each school has a special program to which the community is very devoted and it is becoming rather hypocritical how people are denigrating Fernbank's devotion to the IB program. The Montessori program has a cost that the IB program does not.
Especially when you see these numbers, is anyone else appalled that FB parents have secured lawyers to sue the county if the redistricting plans go through (or at least that is their current threat to the BOE)? Really? It is one of the most selfish positions I can find given the lack of legal precedent to support such a move, especially when you consider the legal fees such a suit (or even the threat of a suit because the county has to pay lawyers to research and assess it for them) are taken from the DCCS budget and therefore from our kids. I get it -- you're unhappy, but don't bring everyone else down with you.
"Especially when you see these numbers, is anyone else appalled that FB parents have secured lawyers to sue the county if the redistricting plans go through (or at least that is their current threat to the BOE)? Really?"
This is absolutely not true - stop the stupidity.
This is not about IB or Montessori. This is about equitably redrawing attendance lines so that our schools and therefore our students will receive the maximum amount of funding allowed by the state of Georgia.
FYI it was proven last year that Montessori is no more expensive on a per student basis than traditional. There are multiple grades being taught in each class plus the materials are more durable and don't have to be replaced yearly like books.
Also, Anonymous 9:31 how are some long overdue kid words about Briar Vista suddenly an anti Fernbank thread? Did you voice the same objections when Briar Vista was the target of deliberate cheap shots? Or is any FACT that supports the redrawing of the district lines to benefit anyone but Fernbank anti Fernbank?
FB parent lawyers are concerned about property value changes. Sorry folks, the BOE could not care less about this argument. What they should be concerned about is how many children are in their school who should actually be attending other schools, not the HB 251 transfers, though. How many children are teachers kids at Fernbank?
Where do all these families reside that are transfers to BV? If they are close, they should go. But the consultants don't know the flavor of the neighborhoods and the BOE could care less.
The player to be named later, Tyson's own plan, will probably move some of these people but not cut so deep. They are squawking pretty loudly over there.
I think she will follow some of the consultants suggestions but surprise us all with her own plan.
The De-consolidated plan is really the best all around. Leave the magnet programs alone, close the schools that need closing and redistrict some of the over crowded schools.
I am Anon 9:31:
"I feel sorry for BVE that they are getting dragged through the mud by Fernbank. They are a good little school."
"BVE is a great little school. Do you think the Fernbank parents who are so against this school have even gone there to observe classes being taught? Hang in there Briar Vista!"
How do these comments equate to FACTS about redrawing attendance lines?
@ anonymous 9:08
"They, more than anyone, should understand if the Fernbank parents value IB"
Much is being made of the IB program at Fernbank ES.
Fernbank ES has 700 students in the IB curriculum. By the time the program reaches Druid Hills, it has dwindled to 80 students in grades 9 through 10 and 70 students in grades 11 through 12.
"At Druid Hills, the IB serves approximately 70 students in the Diploma program (11th and 12th grade) and approximately 80 students in the applicant phase (9th and 10th grade)."
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/druidhills
- Click on IB Program (left hand menu bar)
- Click on Comparison of the IB Program to the AP Program
So 35 students in 9th grade and 35 students in 10th grade are taking the four subjects of science, math, social studies, and English, and remember that IB students in each grade have "their own core content teachers"; no mixing the IB students with the regular ed students in the core subjects.
By 11th and 12th grade, the IB program has dwindled to 70 with their own core teachers for the 4 content areas per grade level.
The class sizes of these students are extremely small (a vast understatement), and remember that these students must go through a rigorous process to even be accepted so this is not a program open to the "masses".
The IB program is truly a "private school" within a "public school setting". And taxpayers are funding the program.
Between the IB program and the Scientific Tools and Techniques Program (90 students a semester) program at Fernbank Science Center, it would appear that the Fernbank Community is certainly getting their money's worth in property taxes. No wonder they are fighting so hard to keep the $7,000,000 Fernbank Science Center and the IB program at Druid Hills.
Cerebration, thanks for this excellent thread. It's high time Briar Vista's many merits were acknowledged instead of their being indirectly labeled as some property-value destroying bum rap choice.
Henderson/Lakeside folks facing re-location should also take a good look at the proposed re-drawing of the Shamrock/Druid Hills High lines. Both schools are going to be, shall we say, somewhat gentrified by these re-drawings.
"Cerebration, thanks for this excellent thread. It's high time Briar Vista's many merits were acknowledged instead of their being indirectly labeled as some property-value destroying bum rap choice.
Henderson/Lakeside folks facing re-location should also take a good look at the proposed re-drawing of the Shamrock/Druid Hills High lines. Both schools are going to be, shall we say, somewhat gentrified by these re-drawings."
Really? Are you serious? Do you even realize the EXTREME hypocrisy of your post???
City of Decatur anyone? I really think that DCSS is too big to effectively manage. If DHHS & LHS and its feeders merged in with City of Decatur ..... Then there's the retirement of the Fulton County School Super. so now DCSS, City of Atlanta, Fulton and Cobb are all looking for Supers at the same time -- can we coordinate? Can we merge the four systems, let the state run them and then become independently run schools? Is there a way to make, at lease APS, Fulton & DCSS more manageable on the whole some way now that there is so much turmoil city-wide? Just throwing some stuff out there.... City of Decatur seems too small... it needs to be a bit bigger....or everyone should be independent and we should do away with all of these vast layers of administration.....
As a Henderson/Lakeside parent facing redistricting, I assure you that "gentrification" is not my goal. Some of us come from diverse elementary schools that we chose purposefully rather than have our children attend neighboring homogeneous elementary schools-- where of course test scores are high because everybody is upper middle class with involved successful parents. Some of us actually like Druid Hills as a culture, academic offerings, etc. However, we desire to stay at Lakeside because the overriding reality for us is distance, travel through congested Emory and CDC (which will worsen when CDC consolidates some satellite offices into the main campus), safety, and the reality of where our community is as evidenced by sports, church, shopping patterns. Others may very well be concerned that they will be losing their exclusionary gentrified "private" public school, and of course not thinking about how they will "bring up" Druid Hills and increase the number of qualified IB applicants. But not all of us have the same motivation, even if our objections sound similar.
I'm curious as to why there has been no discussion about WHY the under-capacity schools are under-capacity. Are there insufficient numbers of children in those school districts...or have families in those school districts choosen other options? If the latter is the case, it would seem very short-signed to re-district in an attempt to force pupils into those seats as the situation would likely recur in subsequent years as the new and old families in the district would likely seek other options in similar proportions. And, in the end: (1) the BOE gets away with NOT paying attention to the quality of schools (not measured simply by CRCT scores) and ignoring a huge source of negative feedback (voting with their feet by seeking other options); (2) the Dekalb children suffer because problems affecting the quality of the schools are not effectively addressed.
@10:30,
I completely agree with what you are saying but do want to point out that students ooutside of Fernbank go to STT.
One positive about Medlock closing is the school system can rent it to The Museum School of Avondale!
If DCSS is going to enable its approved DeKalb Leadership Academy (led by former DCSS administrator frankie Callaway, who was disgraced by a WSB invesitgation for grade changing) to pay New Birth $140,000 a year to rent sapce, the least it can do is allow The Museum School to use Medlock.
That is an awesome idea!
@10:00 - "This is not about IB or Montessori. This is about equitably redrawing attendance lines so that our schools and therefore our students will receive the maximum amount of funding allowed by the state of Georgia."
Question: How is it equitable to re-draw attendance lines in an attempt to fill seats at schools that are likely under-capacity because families choose not to send their children there and remove children from school districts to which families have intentionally moved because of the school and its programs/performance?
If Fernbank and Briar Vista Elementary Schools are so comparable, as many are claiming, why is it that Fernbank is sought by many out-of-district families AND by the children of teachers and top administrators outside of Fernbank School District? I don't hear of out-of-district families clamoring to get into Briar Vista. It seems that those DCSS teachers/administrators have underhandedly wrested the Fernbank neighborhood school from the neighborhood...and certainly haven't given a vote of confidence in their own schools! Are these out-of-district admissions to Fernbank being re-assigned to their home districts under the new plan...or does the "ruling class" get special privileges not afforded to the mere proletariat? "Four legs good, two legs better!"
SNOW DAY(S?)!!!!!!
WAHOOO!
Anon 3:25am - it's equitable because it's public schools. Public schools are obligated to all students. Including the families who love their homes in the Briar Vista district and support their child in that public school. Many of those homes to be redistricted to BV are much much much closer to BV than FB. Unless you live across the street from a given school, you risk redistricting. That's the reality. If you choose to gamble like that in public school, you have little room to complain.
Part of the reason we are in this mess is that we have IB, Montessori, theme schools etc.
In Fulton, Gwinnett, Cobb etc, especially at the elementary level, schools are fairly comparable in offerings. The schools may not have the same test scores, often tied to demographics, but every elementary school has the same specials, resources, etc.
IN DEKALB, we continue to not be able to say that. This is outrageous and a real barrier to progress.
@ 8:55 Amen!!!
The biggest problems with DeKalb from my point of (parent, ex-teacher, taxpayer, and home owner) is that there aren't the same programs offered at the neighborhood schools. One will have Montessori, anther IB, another no music, another no art, etc. Until the schools, especially at elementary are equal in what is offered, our children and schools will have difficulty getting better under NCLB-or whatever it's being called now. There is so much inequity in our schools and the children in our community are suffering from it.
Amen to both 8:55 and 9:19. It's just hard to understand the inequities that have gone on for years.
Lefty,
"Anon 3:25am - it's equitable because it's public schools. Public schools are obligated to all students. Including the families who love their homes in the Briar Vista district and support their child in that public school. Many of those homes to be redistricted to BV are much much much closer to BV than FB. Unless you live across the street from a given school, you risk redistricting. That's the reality. If you choose to gamble like that in public school, you have little room to complain."
But Lefty they are making the same argument that you have repeatedly made about Sagamore - that the neighborhood should be kept together. Seems to me this is even more valid in their instance because they bought houses districted into Fernbank instead of buying a house in the DH portion of Sagamore and hoping to GET it redistricted.
"There is so much inequity in our schools and the children in our community are suffering from it."
This is why the whole process should be split between closing schools that are underutilized and THEN redistrict when we see the results. This is too big of an undertaking to do all at once. Close the empty seats first; redistrict later.
The Silver Lining of 2011 Redistricting!
Once we have the public meetings I am certain that many parents want to see the Financial Impact that all of this is having.
We can all see that maximizing State and Federal funding is DCSS's main goal for redistricting.
I completely understand and agree that something should have been done years ago and is currently being proposed to "fix" it.
Our request should be for them to show us the numbers.
Show us the increase in funding and show us how much money DCSS is going to save from closing 14 schools.
Show the taxpayers the financial net benefit from redistricting the county school system.
Now here is the "Silver Lining" if that's not enough for you.
On January 18th, I for one will be asking Ms. Tyson what specifically she is going to do in exchange for her immediate raise and lifetime raise of her pension.
Not only tell me but also put down in writing what you are going to do for your $270,000 annual salary + benefits?
I would like a contract between you Ms. Tyson and me, the taxpayer, your employer, your boss, that explains in DETAIL exactly what you are proposing to do for your increase in benefits!
What departments need reductions in employees?
What efficiencies are you going to implement?
What exactly are you going to do to earn your $$$$$?
And then and only then, commensurate with you performing said duties will you be awarded your well deserved increase in salary and benefits.
And by the way, I would like to see the 2004 E&Y report on the overfunded/overcrowded central administration and how we can save $15,000,000 annually from the report.
I think this would be a good place to identify areas to reduce expenses.
I think the financial gain from redistricting almost 20% of the entire county is an additional $11-$12 million in state funding.
We have stated all along that 6 years ago, prior to Clew's upgraded title improvement plan that awarded millions in raises to central office employees that there was approximately $15,000,000 in savings without moving a single student!
The savings is probably much higher today, let's say $20,000,000.
I don't know, but we can figure it out based on the report and today's increase in salaries from 6 years ago!
Financial analysis is part of the process and the "Silver Lining" of the redistricting dilemma will be financial accountability.
Show us where the savings are coming from and show us how much additional funding DCSS will be receiving when this is done.
Ms. Tyson, I'll be there on the 18th to see that contract!
S7
"This is too big of an undertaking to do all at once. Close the empty seats first; redistrict later. "
We heard this same argument last year in Fernbank PTA's "Open Letter to the DeKalb Board of Education" regarding closing the $7,000,000 ineffective Fernbank Scince Center (FSC). Their argument was that there was not an enough information, more deliberation was needed, delay the decision for a year so FSC could get private funding, DCSS had systemic budgetary problems and the Fernbank community would be working in the background to help prod them toward addressing those problems, etc., etc.
It's been a year later, and nothing was done, and FSC is operating just as inefficiently as ever and costs us just as much as ever, so I guess the "delay and stall tactic" worked.
But there comes a time when you can't "delay and stall" any more.
I think by and large the consultants have done a sound analysis. They were not aware of the politics of DCSS schools including Oak Grove, Sagamore, Fernbank, Lakeside, Montgomery, Livsey, Medlock, Henderson Mill, etc. This is a politics that include some schools having IB and Montessori, science magnet programs and other numerous specialties. Some schools depend on their large number of gifted students clustered in their school to provide extra teachers and smaller class sizes for all of their children. Some schools have active PTAs so they can fund chess clubs and have yoga classes. Some parents have particular schools that are their alma maters so they want their children to go there. Some schools are "favored" by the DCSS admin and support management as the place to enroll their children.
The consultants looked at schools and empty seats, they looked at streets with houses that have children of various ages, and they used other objective criteria. They looked at DCSS as if all schools were equal in offerings. They made their recommendations on closing schools and redistricting students in such a way that was the most economical for ALL students in DeKalb County.
There was really no other way for them to do this job. The politics and inequities of the schools and the presence of so many administrative transfers of children outside the schoolhouse (i.e. DCSS management placing their children in any school they please) must be addressed by Ms. Tyson and the BOE, not these consultants.
Ms. Tyson has their recommendations for which we taxpayers paid a considerable amount of money. She needs to move to make school programs and teaching staff equal from school to school and put an end to the abuse of the administrative transfers. This will help remove the "delay and stall tactics" that are costing DeKalb County taxpayers money and school children educational opportunities.
Can you do a post showing the difference between Druid Hills and Clarkston? Or Shamrock and Freedom? Because that is what is happening to my neighborhood. It seems shocking as the basic numbers for both seem to indicate never or rarely making AYP with Shamrock and Druid Hills always making AYP. How is this any less than a sentence to a poorer education for those kids unlucky enough to live in my neighborhood?
"I think by and large the consultants have done a sound analysis."
Really? Have you seen what happens to Clarkston HS? Is shuffling all the apartment complexes into a few schools "sound analysis"? If this were truly "sound analysis" wouldn't Cross Keys bizarre oblong district have been redrawn? There are a lot of problems with this plan that don't truly address the realy inequities in the system.
"The consultants looked at schools and empty seats, they looked at streets with houses that have children of various ages, and they used other objective criteria."
The attendance numbers they used for the home school districts included out of district transfers. Therefore the attendance numbers for schools that receive a lot of out of district kids are skewed. The same holds true for schools whose kids transfer out - those school populations are artificially low.
But pretending doesn't make it so. Looking at each school as if they are equal ignores the fact that DCSS is moving some kids from a school which is known for high achievement to one which is known for the opposite. Clarkston is not an adequate education. It is NI-5. Moving a child from Druid Hills to Clarkston is criminal.
"The attendance numbers they used for the home school districts included out of district transfers. "
That's an issue Ms. Tyson must address. We can only surmise she did not tell the consultants to remove those transfer students off the rolls when they made their calculations, or perhaps she told them the administrative transfers from highly placed administrators were staying in place, and that needed to figure into their equations. In either instance, she made that call and only Ms. Tyson can change that call. The BOE can ask her about these numbers, but short of firing her, she is the one who decides that administrators continue to pick the schools their children go to.
"Looking at each school as if they are equal ignores the fact that DCSS is moving some kids from a school which is known for high achievement to one which is known for the opposite."
Why don't you use the same process the author of this thread used? That was the purpose of the thread - not to single out Fernbank, but to provide a guide for parents to look at subgroups and compare achievement from subgroup to subgroup. That's why this thread was a real eye opener. Just saying your child won't get the same achievement opportunities is not enough. Reputation and "I think" and "In my opinion" is not enough. You need some careful analysis and sound data before you make this statement. Assumptions are often like rumors - not founded on data and likely to bring more harm than good.
With Clarkston High School it is pretty clear. They are in NI5, it is one of the lowest 5 percent of high schools in the state in terms of academic performance and it has HUGE school climate issues. It was given a ton of money to do a school turnaround and the system picked the easiest option so they could take the money and run.
If either of these plans were adopted today, the biggest losers are the children who will now feed into Freedom and Clarkston.
Actually, in the end, while they had much data, I am convinced that the consultants only used current enrollments. When yoy look closely at the math, it is clear that did not:
1. Remove out of district students;
2. Consider enrollment trends; and,
3. Analyze impact of redistricting on future enrollment.
@ anonymous 11:39
"Really? Have you seen what happens to Clarkston HS? Is shuffling all the apartment complexes into a few schools "sound analysis"?"
I can see how apartment complexes would be grouped together. Have you ever been behind buses taking children home to their apartment complex. It is a very efficient and cost effective way of transporting children.
In addition, many apartment complexes are in the same general locale. The reason for this is that single-family home owner associations have lobbied hard to keep multi-family housing out of their neighborhoods. The county commissioners have obliged.
This has happened all over DeKalb, and recently (within the last 10 to 15 years) more in south Dekalb than any other area. South DeKalb experienced the greatest building boom (vast tracts of land to build on), and the single family home dwellers have had the same desire to keep their neighborhoods free from multi-family housing.
Look at all of the apartments on Buford Highway. These were put in place in the 1960s right before I came to Atlanta. They were strung all along that highway together so they wouldn't encroach on the single family homeowners. I know people who remember when the single family homeowners around Woodward and Cross Keys used to send their kids to those schools (before all the apartments were built). Have you ever considered the fact that the "gerrymandering" around Cross Keys owes much of its life to the fact that even though there are numerous single family dwellings, if they are zoned into Woodward or Cross Keys they opt for private schools? DCSS has had to expand and make circle around neighborhoods to pick up kids for these schools. I used to teach at Woodward in the 70s and 80s and 90s so I know a little about the area, apartments and schools.
"When yoy look closely at the math, it is clear that did not:
1. Remove out of district students;
2. Consider enrollment trends; and,
3. Analyze impact of redistricting on future enrollment. "
Good points that need to be explained by data from the consultants. Perhaps this has been explained by the consultants and you're not aware of it, or perhaps the school system has not released the explanations yet to the public.
"I can see how apartment complexes would be grouped together. Have you ever been behind buses taking children home to their apartment complex. It is a very efficient and cost effective way of transporting children."
Yep, and the EFFECT on redistricting, although "data-driven" is segregation.
"That's an issue Ms. Tyson must address. We can only surmise she did not tell the consultants to remove those transfer students off the rolls when they made their calculations, or perhaps she told them the administrative transfers from highly placed administrators were staying in place, and that needed to figure into their equations."
Nonsense. Most of the transfers in the county are NCLB. Again, you cannot redistrict DeKalb county like you would Gwinnett because of the uneven school performance.
Actually, it is clear that they did not use much extra data. Watching the question and answer session at the board and follow up discussions after the board meeting indicate that very little outside indicators were used.
Since this is the case, and actually if you look at the maps it is obvious, transportation issues also don't seem to matter as well. In one case that I see on the map, because of the way the roads are laid out, a community being moved to a new school district will now have to go through their old school district and another school district before their bus gets to their new one.
Anan 9:43 - the part of Sagamore that I have advocated for is closer to Lakeside. Kids would walk/drive/bike neighborhood roads to Sagamore. Can't say that they could walk or bike to down N Druid Hills or Clairmont to DHHS.
Nonsense. Most of the transfers in the county are NCLB.
Maybe at the high school level, but NOT at the elementary level. No more than one or two elementary schools a year have had to offer transfers, some years none have had to. (Only Oak View had to offer choice for this school year.)
The redistricting is based on a pretty static analysis. As has been suggested, the County demographics are constantly changing. Example,if the GA legislature passes tough laws against illegal aliens, there might (just guessing) be a decrease in the non-African American minorities. The BOE should not proceed with this unless they agree do it again in about 5 - 7 years. By that time, maybe things will have stabilized or the County will will have gone bankrupt.
Is Briar Vista associated in any way with the Del Boca Vista condominium where Jerry Seinfeld's parents live? Just kidding. Snow fog
Here are 2 charts that may help in the discussion.
The first provides the number of non-residents at a particular school.
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/planning/files/ResNonRes_20100915.pdf
The second chart outlines the Sending/Receiving data at the high school level:
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/planning/files/HS_students_20100915.pdf
@ anonymous 12:40 pm
"Actually, it is clear that they did not use much extra data. Watching the question and answer session at the board and follow up discussions after the board meeting indicate that very little outside indicators were used."
That's actually not a bad thing. The consultants should have been shielded from power centers. Power centers (parent groups, administrators, BOE members, friends and family, church affiliations, sorority and fraternity ties, etc.) have helped make DCSS a patchwork of uneven facilities and program offerings. Would we really want all of these power centers to have an influence on the schools closings and redistricting? (LOL - only our power center)
I think after the redistricting, then transportation should come next. I'm personally uncomfortable with the fact that the head of transportation is David Guillory, son-in-law of Francis Edwards, former BOE head for years and years. Doesn't Harold Lewis, Crawford Lewis's relative, have a high ranking job in that department or one related to it? My understanding is that these people had no formal training in these critical jobs when they received their promotions. Isn't that one of the issues SACS is investigating?
A consulting firm should be addressing this critical area of transportation next. With diesel prices considerably north of $3.00, we need to be as efficient with our transportation system as possible.
So let's get the school closing and redistricting done and then start on transportation. Maybe a group of professional transportation engineers using cutting edge software can figure out how to get a student from point A to B without going by A twice.
Not only did they take the easiest option along with the money, they put Zepora Robert's daughter in as principal (having only had some experience as an AP). Formula for success?
Sagamore - you make an excellent point. While all of this painful redistricting will bring an estimated $11 million to the system in funding, it has been shown years ago, that cutting bloated staff and creating a pay scale for the remaining staff that is market-driven, we could save at least $15 million. But where oh where did that study go? Any why oh why have they never commissioned another one? (Same cost as the redistricting consultants.)
Briar Vista is a good school. Druid Hill High School is a good school. I think there is no debate about this.
However, the issue to me has always been invested tradition from the community, the workings of the community and the support of the community/involvement of the community in the schoolhouse, and the history of the school and the community. Both of these things need to be considered when considering boundaries of schools like Fernbank and Lakeside. The community have built a tradition of excellence and pride which revolve around their school. The community is extremely involved in their school.
For instance the Lakeside community has very deep political roots which span generations of a family who come back to live so their children can attend Lakeside. This is an emotional issue to these parents, grandparents and to the Lakeside community. Lakeside had additions to their family when Henderson became the middle school and Lakeside picked up the Henderson area attendance area. However, the old roots of the older Lakeside community are strong and they do not want change in the old attendance lines of Lakeside. Instead they want to include all of the Sagamore area as they are part of the Lakeside community. This has been an issue for a long time that needs to be addressed finally.
One of the criteria for selecting the lines was distance to the school. Another was keeping communities together. They have done a horrible job of this with the Lakeside community. It has nothing to do with whether Druid Hills is a good school. It has to do with staying part of a community and being close to your high school verses being fairly far away.
"One of the criteria for selecting the lines was distance to the school. Another was keeping communities together. They have done a horrible job of this with the Lakeside community. It has nothing to do with whether Druid Hills is a good school. It has to do with staying part of a community and being close to your high school verses being fairly far away."
Agreed Ella, and if this holds true at Lakeside it is just as valid at every school.
@ anonymous 12:22
"Yep, and the EFFECT on redistricting, although "data-driven" is segregation."
I agree. It is segregation, but much of the segregation is "class" segregation, not racial. South DeKalb has areas that are almost totally African American, and much of the apartment clustering (of Economically Disadvantaged students) versus single family home clustering comes from those areas too.
I get the feeling that many posters see South DeKalb as some monolithic African-American area filled with parents who don't care, students who are all underachievers, and mainly low income. On the contrary, while it may have a population that is racially homogeneous, there is a tremendous variance in parental support, student achievement, and income levels in south Dekalb. The ambitions for their children and fears of parents are not exclusive to white parents.
Socioeconomic class differences and the desire to raise their families in a nice, safe, neighborhood of single family homes has caused citizens all over DeKalb to petition their commissioners who zone the county to group all of the apartments together. NIMBY (Not in My Backyard) is alive and well all over the county (and every county in metro Atlanta).
"Nonsense. Most of the transfers in the county are NCLB. Again, you cannot redistrict DeKalb county like you would Gwinnett because of the uneven school performance."
No. You would be wrong on that. A considerable number of the transfers are administrative transfers. That is to say they are transfers whereby administrators in DCSS (white, black, and other) pick the schools their children go to. There are students going to DCSS schools who do not live in DeKalb County because their parent is an administrator. Those are the transfers some of these parents are complaining about. They don't like NCLB transfers either, but they know that the ones Ms. Tyson can get rid of with a wave of her magic wand are the administrative transfers.
"BVE is a great little school. Do you think the Fernbank parents who are so against this school have even gone there to observe classes being taught?"
The sad thing about incorrect negative perceptions of schools is that many of the people who pass them on have never been inside the school to see what happens there. In the case of Fernbank vs Briar Vista it appears that a case is being made to keep Fernbank's attendance lines from changing at the expense of Briar Vista's reputation. Let's not go there.
As a poster pointed out, nothing is static with respect to communities. For example, you may be able to bike to a school, but within a few years a road is expanded from two lane to four land and a medium is put in place, effectively making the streets too busy to bike safely. You may be within a 1/2 mile from your elementary school, but 4 or 5 cluster home cul-de-sacs nearer your school (sound familiar Oak Grove and Lakeside with Fred Malani building like crazy?) bring the circle of children who will fill that school within a smaller radius leaving you outside the circle and in the larger radius of another school that hasn't experienced that level of building.
Much of the dynamics has been caused by building patterns and road development. The school system cannot control this. All DCSS can do is continue to assess the data and make adjustments. We should have been doing this every 5 to 7 years. However, we've gotten into this mess because DCSS had/has so many as another poster put it "power centers".
I agree with Cerebration that Ms. Tyson will earn her raise if she can steer clear of "historic neighborhood" and "my child can walk to school" and "we need those gifted students so we can fund our specials", etc. arguments. They are all very good arguments for the parts, but lousy arguments for the whole system.
I think parents are so caught up in this that they are missing the chance to affect this upcoming budget with pressure on Ms. Tyson and the BOE to cut sharply in the admin and support area and re-employ that money to make schools equal in facilities, basic programs, and faculty.
Not only did they take the easiest option along with the money, they put Zepora Robert's daughter in as principal (having only had some experience as an AP). Formula for success?
Not ZR's daughter. She is Felicia Mayfield-Mitchell's daughter: a cabinet member.
@ 1:46, I believe that the board and Tyson want the public to forget about cutting administration levels and salaries that have gone a rye. Then they won't have to deal with these issues either.
Tyson will only earn her raise if she makes decisions based on what is best for the district, not neighborhood y or school x. This goes for the redistricting and the right sizing of the administration and the salaries that these people get(notice I did not say earn).
That's right. The AP they just installed was the DCSS "Cabinet" (don't you just love that term) member's daughter. Zepora Roberts' daughter is a highly paid Parent Center coordinator. Doesn't Ms. Roberts have another daughter in a highly paid non-teaching position in DCSS?
You all are correct - I misspoke - it's Mayfield's daughter. (Was the job even publicly posted?)
To Anon 1:46 PM - your points are very valid - for an ordinary situation. However, this is DCSS - a very dysfunctional, top-heavy system that has used and abused the public's trust for the personal gain of those at the top for a very long time. Now that they are asking communities to make sacrifices, communities are pushing back - hard. They are now reaping what they have long sown - a complete lack of trust.
do only reading and math scores matter? These are also CRCT scores, right?
Sorry, Celebration. I'm calling BS on your post. I just can’t let this assertion that BV and FB students perform equally well stand. It really sticks in my craw. Lumping Meets and Exceeds together completely obscures the real differences between the schools. I went to the GA DOE website as you did, and looked at the numbers. Story’s pretty different if you look just at those students who “Exceed” the CRCT standards. Here’s a quick summary for you (though I have no doubt you are already aware of this, you simply thought lumping data together was better for your argument). Pretty consistently, twice the percentage of FB students exceed standards on the CRCT compared to BV students.
FB 1st Grade Exceeds CRCT standard:
Reading: 69
English: 43
Math: 56
BV 1st Grade Exceeds CRCT standard:
Reading: 38
English: 19
Math: 27
FB 3rd Grade Exceeds :
Reading: 74
English: 71
Mathematics: 72
Soc Studies: 80
Science: 79
BV 3rd Grade Exceeds:
Reading: 51
English: 38
Math: 37
Soc Studies: 12
Science: 33
FB 5th Grade Exceeds:
Reading : 52
English: 49
Math: 47
Soc Studies: 36
Science: 60
BV 5th Grade Exceeds:
Reading 23
English: 15
Math: 28
Soc Studies: 13
Science: 30
These scores, as others have pointed out, are occurring even though FB is limited in its ability to “teach to the test” due to its IB program external monitoring, whereas BV can teach to the test without such limitation. The School Board is making it clear that schools that stress excellence are not to be valued.
"This is an emotional issue to these parents, grandparents and to the Lakeside community. Lakeside had additions to their family when Henderson became the middle school and Lakeside picked up the Henderson area attendance area. However, the old roots of the older Lakeside community are strong and they do not want change in the old attendance lines of Lakeside."
Ella, Ella, Ella.
First off: School districts need to re-district. Even Lakeside, with their vaunted "tradition".
Also, much of this is being driven by that "older Lakeside community" you mention. It's almost all white, and the neighborhoods closest to Lakeside are aging and aren't exactly packed with young families, and there isn't a ton of movement in those neighborhoods. People lives their for decades, and it doesn't turn around often with young families. The older Lakeside community actually likes it that way.
Lakeside has a point about not spliting neighborhoods down the middle. But they also have a duty to be team players, and think about the system as a whole.
Sorry, the "traditions" of the "older Lakeside community" carries absolutely no weight!!
I know this is going to be long, so I'm going to try to post this in 3 parts:
@ Anonymous 3:27 pm
"I'm calling BS on your post. I just can’t let this assertion that BV and FB students perform equally well stand. "
That was not the assertion of this thread. The assertion of this thread was that "when comparing subgroups, Briar Vista can hold its own academically with Fernbank ".
The poster who did this research anticipated your question, knew it would come up, and decided this question would be better answered in a comment rather than trying for a lesson in testing and measurement in the thread.
You've posed the question so here goes....
1. You have missed the point of the article which is comparing subgroups.
In your example, you have not broken each whole group in the 1st grade into subgroups allowing us to compare groups of students similar backgrounds - eg. students with Limited English Proficiency, groups that are Economically Disadvantaged, Students with Disabilities, groups of students that identify themselves as Asian, Black, Hispanic, White, Multiracial, etc.
As many faults as NCLB has (and they are too numerous to detail), disaggregated data does let us to compare groups with similar backgrounds from school to school. That is probably the most (some would say only) useful component of this reform movement.
Most of the posters agree that a student's background matters when it comes to academic attainment and the research bears that out. Disaggregated data no longer allows us to hide the lower attainment of some groups by averaging them with the higher groups.
Part 3 of Post:
3. The universe of students you are citing is too small.
The larger your group, the more reliability you have from a statistical standpoint. NCLB recognizes this and requires states to set the sizes of subgroups so that the validity and reliability of the testing will be improved.
Notice that the poster who compared the subgroups for the 5th grade (anon 4:58) was not able to compare any subgroups but White since by the time he/she drilled down to the 5th grade student data, the subgroups had fallen into such a small number that they were no longer considered valid subgroups.
The poster who did this data does not live in either attendance area or even have a child in DCSS so there was no subterfuge or desire to "skew" the data. The poster was actually quite surprised by the end results.
You may not like the outcome of the data. But that is another matter altogether.
You are welcome to do your own analysis, but be prepared to defend it against criticism. The poster who did this data analysis welcomes criticism and corrections. As Cerebration has often pointed out, this blog is not a paid concern.
Part 2 of Post:
2. You are attempting to take a criterion referenced assessment and extract norm referenced data from it.
The poster who put together this data purposely did not break these CRCT scores into Meets and Exceeds. That was discarded as a consideration because this was a Criterion Referenced rather than a Norm Referenced Test.
A criterion referenced test has as its goal to measure if the test taker has mastered the objectives of a given subject or not. The particular problem with using the Exceeds portion is that you are attempting to use this information like you would a norm referenced test. That is to say you are looking for levels of attainment in a universe of students. A criterion referenced test has only two real levels of attainment - yes the skill was mastered or no it wasn't. Either you attain the objectives of division for 4th grade math or you don't. The cut score is set, and once you attain the Meets portion, the Exceeds portion is so crude that you are not sure if this means the 4th grade student tested in math on a 5th grade, 8th grade or 12th grade level.
The Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS)is a norm referenced test. To do what you want to do - accurately measure the higher levels of attainment - needs a test like the ITBS. The poster who did this research looked at the ITBS between these two schools. However, DCSS does not break the ITBS into subgroups of students with similar backgrounds - again the POINT of this article.
Part 2A of Post:
2. You are attempting to take a criterion referenced assessment and extract norm referenced data from it.
The poster who put together this data purposely did not break these CRCT scores into Meets and Exceeds. That was discarded as a consideration because this was a Criterion Referenced rather than a Norm Referenced Test.
Part 2B of Post:
A criterion referenced test has as its goal to measure if the test taker has mastered the objectives of a given subject or not. The particular problem with using the Exceeds portion is that you are attempting to use this information like you would a norm referenced test. That is to say you are looking for levels of attainment in a universe of students. A criterion referenced test has only two real levels of attainment - yes the skill was mastered or no it wasn't. Either you attain the objectives of division for 4th grade math or you don't. The cut score is set, and once you attain the Meets portion, the Exceeds portion is so crude that you are not sure if this means the 4th grade student tested in math on a 5th grade, 8th grade or 12th grade level.
The Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS)is a norm referenced test. To do what you want to do - accurately measure the higher levels of attainment - needs a test like the ITBS. The poster who did this research looked at the ITBS between these two schools. However, DCSS does not break the ITBS into subgroups of students with similar backgrounds - again the POINT of this article.
Part 2 B of Post
A criterion referenced test has as its goal to measure if the test taker has mastered the objectives of a given subject or not. The particular problem with using the Exceeds portion is that you are attempting to use this information like you would a norm referenced test. That is to say you are looking for levels of attainment in a universe of students.
A criterion referenced test has only two real levels of attainment - yes the skill was mastered or no it wasn't. Either you attain the objectives of division for 4th grade math or you don't. The cut score is set, and once you attain the Meets portion, the Exceeds portion is so crude that you are not sure if this means the 4th grade student tested in math on a 5th grade, 8th grade or 12th grade level.
Whew! That 3 part post was a little disjointed, but for those of you are interested in the background of the data analysis - there it is.
I disagree with your logic.
Every time I have used NCLB numbers to pick a school for my children I have ONLY used "Exceeds" as my comparison number. I use those numbers to filter out the 5-8 best elementary schools in an area and then I tour each school. I find the "Exceeds" number usually accurately reflects the academic excellence of a school.
I have lived in 5 states in the last 12 years so picking a school for my kids is something I have had to do too often.
Isn't the "meets" standard somewhere in the 50s? This, in my opinion, is much more telling. It suggests that at one school there is a greater likelihood that there is some (not all) teaching to the test going on. As well, scores on social studies and science suggest a more global learning framework (teaching critical thinking) occurring at the other school.
I do not have a dog in this fight (attend neither program), but would prefer that people DO look at the numbers more thoroughly.
To those who suggest that we should do away with programs that are extending learning and provide only the same to everyone, why not push instead to provide programming that extends learning. I'm afraid that the push will be instead (and it is certainly reflected in the comments on this particular topic) to "dumb down" the system to the lowest common denominator. Trust me, equity means a lowering of standards, not an increase, and a decrease of programming, not an increase.
I really do want to see equity across the system, it just seems like wanting to get rid of programs like IB PYP(rather than extending them to other schools), which teach the entire student body and require global programming would be a good thing. As well, it has the benefit of oversight, which this system is woefully incapable of (see your own stories on the blog about Berry).
I don't get it.
"it just seems like wanting to get rid of programs like IB PYP(rather than extending them to other schools), which teach the entire student body and require global programming would be a good thing. "
IB in Fernbank is obviously watered down and most of the students do not benefit. Look at the numbers. 700 students go through IB at Fernbank which by the way is not cheap for DCSS taxpayers.
By the time they get to Druid Hills there are only 40 students per 9th and 10th and 40 students per grade level in 11th and 12th (and not all of these students are even from Fernbank - you have to audition to get into the program - sound familiar DCSS parents?). They suck the resources from the regular ed classes that educate MOST of the students at DHHS leaving students in general level and advanced classes with 30+ students while the IB classes are small and exclusive. This does not seem to be a program that reaches "the entire student body".
The IB program sounds good on paper, but in reality an IB diploma is only given to a "selected" few - ONLY 70 students a year graduate from DHHS with an IB diploma. You didn't quote that figure did you?
And using the CRCT which is a criterion referenced test is ridiculous if you know anything about testing and measurements - Exceeds - what? 5th grade, 6th grade, 7th grade - see what I mean?
I'm for national testing - norm referenced. Let's see how Georgia fares against the rest of the nation, let's sompare subgroups, and let's make it norm referenced so we can really look at the attainment levels.
And I say the IB program is not affordable. Why are we placing less than 20 very smart students into IB classes which forces us to pack 30+ into regular ed (general and advanced) classes. The teachers at Fernbank and Druid Hills know the IB is another program that cost a lot and provides little for most of DCSS students.
Just wondering. . . Has anyone stated that IB PYP would only stay at FB instead of following the former FB students wherever they might end up? Is there something about IB that would make it be tied to the school building? I don't know much about it so I'm asking y'all.
@ 8"09
"Every time I have used NCLB numbers to pick a school for my children I have ONLY used "Exceeds" as my comparison number....I have lived in 5 states in the last 12 years "
Exceeds what? - please tell me - are they on a 7th grade level, 8th grade level, 10th grade level? Of course you don't know since this is not the objective of a criterion referenced test.
If your children are doing well, then it's probably because of your efforts. Now if you're looking to get a larger return on your property investment and want to use test score "averages" to sell your property, then by all means tout the "average" scores and "Exceeds" scores to prospective buyers - hey it works in my affluent Northlake neighborhood.
But if you want a true comparison of how your child will do in a given school, look at the subgroup he/she belongs to and then look at the percentage of students who Meets/Exceeds on the CRCT. Maybe this exercise will save you some money on the next house you buy.
This thread pulled back the curtain on real estate hype. No one liked that.
"IB in Fernbank is obviously watered down and most of the students do not benefit. Look at the numbers. 700 students go through IB at Fernbank which by the way is not cheap for DCSS taxpayers."
You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? The IB program is very strong and all of the students benefit and many more would like to have the experience. The program at this point costs the county NOTHING.
"By the time they get to Druid Hills there are only 40 students per 9th and 10th and 40 students per grade level in 11th and 12th (and not all of these students are even from Fernbank - you have to audition to get into the program - sound familiar DCSS parents?)."
Again, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The IB Elementary and Middle school programs most certainly do reach the entire school population, including all of the kids and Shamrock. There are 2 parts to implementing the IB program in the high school, one which is school-wide and the diploma program which has lower class sizes because fewer kids choose it due to its intensive level of course work. Druid Hills only has the diploma progam so ONLY 11th and 12th graders CHOOSE to go into it. No "auditions". The other option they have is the AP track.
"I say the IB program is not affordable" - really? How much does it cost? It costs nothing now because the main cost associated with it was teacher training and that is done. Given the cost effectiveness of the IB program it truly makes sense to implement it at more schools but that requires the commitment of the school administration and the parents.
@anon 10:05
Much of your info about the IB program at Druid Hills is incorrect. No one has to audition for the program. In fact, the qualifications are quite minimal, GPA minimum less than that for Beta Club. The main prerequisite is that the student be motivated and committed to learning. The numbers of kids in the program have continued to grow with well over 50 10th graders planning to start the 2 year curriculum next year. With this many kids, the classes will not all be small. The costs are also quite minimal. The IB coordinator gets paid a little bit extra but she also is a regular teacher and performs guidance counselor duties. The main costs to the county were in obtaining the IB certification, not in maintaining it.
The program is a true jewel for DCSS. Most colleges, including UGA, consider IB to be the most rigorous program a high school student can complete. The program, unlike most current AP classes, focuses on knowledge synthesis, critical thinking, and writing. In fact, the AP curriculum will be overhauled over the next few years (see last Sunday's education section in the NY Times) to be less rote learning and more like IB. The IB really is a model to be emulated.
The kids from last year's Druid Hills IB cohort have had terrific college options and scholarship options. Many of these kids were not top students when entering the program but grew tremendously by completing the program. As more and more schools nationwide adopt IB, it would be extremely shortsided for DCSS to drop the high school IB program.
"At Druid Hills, the IB serves approximately 70 students in the Diploma program (11th and 12th grade) and approximately 80 students in the applicant phase (9th and 10th grade)."
As far as the cost being very little, that's somewhat misleading. I've heard teachers at Druid Hills say they have 30+ students in their regular ed and AP classes while he IB program has 17 and 18. When this was brought up last year on this blog, parents of IB students said it was because the numbers were so small. Only 35 in 11th and 35 in 12th and since 35 was over the classroom limit, they were required to split them into 17 and 18 per class. You do realize that either more teachers need to be hired or the existing teachers have to take on more students. At Druid Hills they've just asked the regular ed and AP to take on more students since the IB classes must separate from the rest of the school. Is that a fair allocation of resources. I'm sure that's great for the IB students, but it does make the rest of the classes overcrowded. As you can see the 9th and 10th grade is the applicant stage and then a certain percentage drop out by the 11th grade.
DHHS has a very good website so I would trust their figures over a poster on a blog (no offense). The numbers you are quoting just don't add up when compared to their official website.
I'm sure it's a great program - if for no other reason that it has small classes of smart kids in it. I'm sure it has the rigor and individual attention that these students need to maximize their potential.
But it is a small "select" school within a school that receives a disproportionate amount of faculty resources.
@ Anonymous 8:09 pm
"I disagree with your logic.
Every time I have used NCLB numbers to pick a school for my children I have ONLY used "Exceeds" as my comparison number."
You can disagree all you want. The numbers are the numbers and you can't change those (especially with all the monitoring of the test now days).
I would suspect that your children did well because you are an involved parent. No doubt your influence and involvement have made all the difference in your children's educational experience. That's actually why the numbers reflecting students' backgrounds were so similar in this particular analysis.
@ anonymous 10:55
"Much of your info about the IB program at Druid Hills is incorrect. No one has to audition for the program. In fact, the qualifications are quite minimal, GPA minimum less than that for Beta Club."
My information came from the Druid Hills website IB section. Here is the link and quotes from the website:
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/druidhills:
1. Click on the left hand menu bar IB Program
2. Click on Admission Criteria in the middle of the webpage
"Admission Criteria
Rising 11th Grade Students IB DP Entry Requirement
Minimum core 3.2 average at end of 10th grade
Completion of advanced/accelerated core curriculum in the 9th and 10th grades
Completion of three years of French, Spanish, or German (Tucker HS applicants only) by the end of 10th grade
Two favorable teacher recommendations from ninth or tenth grade core subjects
Completion of the IB DP application student packet with parent/guardian approval
A hand-written, 250-word essay on interest in IB
Interview with the IB Committee of the school
Students interested in pursuing the IB Diploma Programme must take the most Advanced/Accelerated/Honors/High Achiever courses for which the student qualifies in preparation for the 11th and 12th grade IB DP courses. "
Sounds pretty "select" to me. Otherwise why would there only be 80 students for 9th and 10th grade and 70 students for 11th an 12th?
@ 10:55
"Much of your info about the IB program at Druid Hills is incorrect. No one has to audition for the program. In fact, the qualifications are quite minimal, GPA minimum less than that for Beta Club."
My information came from the Druid Hills website IB section. Here is the link and quotes from the website:
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/druidhills:
1. Click on the left hand menu bar IB Program
2. Click on Admission Criteria in the middle of the webpage
"Admission Criteria
Rising 11th Grade Students IB DP Entry Requirement
Minimum core 3.2 average at end of 10th grade
Completion of advanced/accelerated core curriculum in the 9th and 10th grades Completion of three years of French, Spanish, or German (Tucker HS applicants only) by the end of 10th grades
Two favorable teacher recommendations from ninth or tenth grade core subjects
Completion of the IB DP application student packet with parent/guardian approval
A hand-written, 250-word essay on interest in IB
Interview with the IB Committee of the school
Students interested in pursuing the IB Diploma Programme must take the most Advanced/Accelerated/Honors/High Achiever courses for which the student qualifies in preparation for the 11th and 12th grade IB DP courses. "
Sounds pretty "select" to me. Otherwise why would there only be 80 students for 9th and 10th grade and 70 students for 11th an 12th?
@ 10:55
"Much of your info about the IB program at Druid Hills is incorrect. No one has to audition for the program. In fact, the qualifications are quite minimal, GPA minimum less than that for Beta Club."
"Admission Criteria
Rising 11th Grade Students IB DP Entry Requirement
Minimum core 3.2 average at end of 10th grade
Completion of advanced/accelerated core curriculum in the 9th and 10th grades Completion of three years of French, Spanish, or German (Tucker HS applicants only) by the end of 10th grades
Two favorable teacher recommendations from ninth or tenth grade core subjects
Completion of the IB DP application student packet with parent/guardian approval
A hand-written, 250-word essay on interest in IB
Interview with the IB Committee of the school
Students interested in pursuing the IB Diploma Programme must take the most Advanced/Accelerated/Honors/High Achiever courses for which the student qualifies in preparation for the 11th and 12th grade IB DP courses. "
Sounds pretty "select" to me. Otherwise why would there only be 80 students for 9th and 10th grade and 70 students for 11th an 12th?
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/druidhills
Click on IB program
Click on Admissions Criteria
It's curious how parents in the Druid Hills community have been very quiet about the waste of tens of millions of dollars by DCSS and voted for Eugene Walker in droves. Yet somehow they seem to feel like small, expensive programs like the IB will not be affected with the budget, the county albatross Fernbank Science Center ($7,000,000 a year), and redistricting the elementary schools should not touch them. If parents in any school want to keep their programs, they need to be asking Ms. Tyson and the BOE to cut the enormous amount of money that goes to the over paid and over staffed (the worst in metro Atlanta) admin and support staff.
I saw this attitude last year on this blog when the discussion was about Fernbank Science Center. the consensus was that the county didn't have the money to a supply good science education for everyone so let's give it to a select few (90 students per semester in the SST program). What a waste of $7,000,000 a year in science dollars. Of course, it is also a beautiful piece of green space kept up very nicely by the groundskeepers paid for by tax dollars.
If there was ever an elephant in a horse race, Fernbank Science Center is that elephant.
Outdated (built for the 19502 when gas was cheap)
Inefficient (who transports thousands of buses of kids to one teacher)
Overstaffed with admin and support (over 50% of the staff
Ineffective (our science scores have had a steady decline).
Beware of starting educational programs because people get invested in them and it is almost impossible to get rid of them no matter what their performance.
It is doubly surprising that Fernbank parents are so supportive of Gene Walker. Guess they had no problem with his Sembler contributions, his relatives woring for the system, his refusal to step down as DeKalb Development Authority chair, and the worst, this below. All that support from Frnbankers for him promising not to move their sending lines.
http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=165732
State paid $190,000 to settle earlier sex harassment suit
As an IB parent at Druid Hills, I can say that the school encourages any motivated student with a 3.2 GPA to participate. Many kids chose not to do it because they think it will be too much work. With grade inflation in 9th and 10th grade all our DCSS high schools, plus lots of padding from A's in PE, heath and electives, lots of kids have at least a 3.2 GPA at that point. Lots of kids could benefit from this program and the school would love for them to participate. Growing the program can only serve to enhance academic performing of DCSS and producing better educated kids.
There is so much waste to be cut at the Central Office before considering eliminating successful programs that are already well-established. We need to focus our energy on cutting true waste.
Does the established high school IB program cost more than a comparable AP? I think the difference in maintenance costs negligible. I know at other high schools, AP classes are small, too, but we certainly aren't advocating getting rid of them.
The problem with IB is that so few students are participating in the three schools that have it, Druid Hills, Tucker, and Miller Grove.
While not ideal, many AP classes do have upwards of 25 kids in them, some have 30. With IB, if there aren't 25 kids interested, the class still has to go because of the program.
We need one IB high school program. That is what Fulton has at Riverwood, but no transportation, you get yourself there.
and, conversly, I'm wondering if we should consider implementing IB system wide as the equitable answer for what should be offered for the high achieving and gifted kids -- perhaps that is the answer to employment decisions like Beasley and stuffing 38 kids (yes) into AP classes at LHS (where AP is staffed like a general class without any regard for readiness, ability or if you can succeed -- once you are there, you have to really move a mountain to get out if it turns out you are way over your head and no one really cares if a kid gets an F or a 1 on the exam). IB has those incredible international controls on quality.... If there was a way to put it at all schools - or even one per cluster and anyone could go if interested and had that gpa/IOWA/test score-- and any participating teacher and pricipal would have that as their "prime" supervisor (let's say) that may be pretty incredible (e.g. exempt from inane other, non-state mandated rules).... Just a thought.
IB primary, which is what it is at the elementary level, must be whole school and offered to every student.
Please not one per cluster, one, maybe two for the whole system.
Gwinnett has 150000 students and only has it at Norcross High School.
Fulton has 70000+ students and is a far longer county than DeKalb and they only have it at Riverwood.
@ 9:46
"..."employment decisions like Beasley and stuffing 38 kids (yes) into AP classes at LHS"
That's setting the students up for failure. This is what you get when the admin and support staff grows to 8,500 while Dr. Lewis, Ms. Tyson and the BOE shrank the teaching staff to 6,500. I'm surprised LHS parents are up in arms about this. The educational conditions in the classrooms are more important than zoning issues. And how in the world will be keep teachers qualified to teach AP with tese kind of numbers. Dr. Beasley as head of curriculum and instruction should know better than this. The responsibility lies at his doorstep.
Would it be a good thing if it were IB at all elementaries, all middle and one HS per cluster? (I'm checking -- what I know about IB is anecdotal and I'm impressed & wish I had it available -- I had some AP experience, gifted kids and have now gone private for HS with younger kids).
NOt per cluster, I meant per "region" or perhaps 2 High Schools (north and south)-- cluster doesn't work... sorry.
Anon 10:04 -- as a LHS parent with kids who have been in gifted classes staffed at 22 -- you advance to AP assuming similar conditions; if you've been in non-gifted I think you assume 30 or 32. Kid comments "I need 35 or 40 donuts for extra credit points for AP" you think s/he can't possible be serious but you comply. Year started with 40 or 50 in the room and you were told they would "balance" -- it never dawns on you that they would really leave the class at state max for general +2 buffer and that they would not be adequately prepped for the exam (some do do very well but my experience is that they are kids who can teach themselves well - there are some exceptions of course). It takes the parents very long to figure it out or they remain in denial -- it's hard to piece together. Teacher's hand are tied to complain and LHS is on 3rd principal in 6 or so years. Some of this frustration is now showing becuase the classes are somewhat overstuffed because the school is overstuffed because of all the transfers (probably mass total of between 200-500 kids at the school legally and illegally who are not "neighborhood" kids so you see the neighborhood go up in arms when you then start discussing splitting the underlying feeder schools who have fed to the school since it was founded in the 1960s).
@ 10:05
"Would it be a good thing if it were IB at all elementaries, all middle and one HS per cluster?'
PLEASE save us from another "educational program" until we get our financial house in order. DCSS needs more teachers and less admin and support and less "educational programs". Somehow we FORGET we need teachers to teach these programs, not just administrators to administrate these programs.
Another program added to the teachers' plates when many are already teaching 30+ students (thanks to Lewis and Tyson and the BOE cutting almost 400 teacher positions in the past two years) is not productive for students.
And once you get a program into DCSS, it's all but impossible to get it out. Witness these ineffective programs -$7,000,000 FSC, $8,000,000 America's Choice, $9,000,000 Instructional Coaches, Parent Centers $4,500,000, our own Security force $12,500,000 - these few examples are $45,000,000 in annual expenses. And parents wonder why classes are packed to the rafters, and schools must close and we must redistrict.
People have vested interests in those programs, and they do employ a lot of people - the problem is very few teach kids.
And NO ONE ever provides taxpayers with the efficacy of those programs or ANY cost/benefit analysis. They just stay on the books for years and years and eat away at the budget. That's the major budget problem we have now
Home values won't stabilize and get better until DCSS gets better. We've been in the news so much, and home values are at year 2000 values. This isn't going to go up until the economy improves and DCSS gets it's act together.
Does the Central Office and its academic administrators (Beasely, Bahamas Berry) have any actual planned strategies on how IB, AP, magnet, charter, high achievers, etc. all tie into each other??
It seems like one big FUBAR clusterblank.
Seriously, is it one big hodge podge, or is there an actual well thought out and disciplined strategy on what's offered, where it's offered, how they leverage each other, etc.?
Here is the mission statement for the International Baccalaureate program -
The International Baccalaureate aims to develop inquiring, knowledgeable and caring young people who help to create a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect.
To this end the organization works with schools, governments and international organizations to develop challenging programmes of international education and rigorous assessment.
These programmes encourage students across the world to become active, compassionate and lifelong learners who understand that other people, with their differences, can also be right.
@ anon 10:40
"Does the Central Office and its academic administrators (Beasely, Bahamas Berry) have any actual planned strategies on how IB, AP, magnet, charter, high achievers, etc. all tie into each other??"
Very funny - Bahamas Berry.
To answer your question - No. There is no coherent plan. That's one reason for declining scores overall and the "bunker" mentality of schools in affluent areas. Bahamas Berry and Beasley have no earthy idea on how to improve our schools. I don't know how much experience Berry had in the classroom - I don't think she had a lot, but I know Beasley only had 3 1/2 years in the 90s. They are in positions for which they are not qualified. How do we know this? Because they are in charge of improving the academic achievement of students and academic achievement has gone down, not up. Both need to be replaced. Put someone in charge of the Office of School Improvement who will - uh - improve the schools - not preside over their downward spiral.
"Put someone in charge of the Office of School Improvement who will - uh - improve the schools - not preside over their downward spiral."
How about instead completely eliminating the office of School Improvement, and focusing those resources back in the classroom, with principals have more authority, especially on allocating Title I funds.
I bet Bahamas Berry and Buy My Online Check Register/Pastor Beasley couldn't teach a single full day of 9th grade if their job depended on it. Luckily for them it doesn't.
Why does Bahamas Berry still have her job as Executive Director of the Office of School Improvement since less DCSS schools are making AYP than ever? Has anyone emailed or directly asked Ms. Tyson or the BOE members this question? If so and they answered it, could you share their answer with the blog?
Please, don't call her that. We want to treat people respectfully here on the blog.
So what is DCSS planning to do with the de-commissioned properties? Medlock is one of them, and is 3.8 miles from Fernbank.
Here's a thought - according to the DCSS website, Fernbank has a capacity of 578 and Medlock a capacity of 374. Without any renovations, that's a total capacity of 952 - over the 900 student target. Why not combine the two schools (using both buildings)and not transfer anybody?
Both schools are located in neighborhoods off of main thoroughfares. Both have wooded areas around them, and have gardens and nature trails.
According to the study, Fernbank's educational adequacy score is 52 and Medlock's is 74.
What about having two branches of the school, both with the IB Elementary years program? Or have Medlock serve K-1 and Fernbank 3-5?
Just thinking outside the box, here?
Excellent idea! In my recent post about Fulton, their website states that some of their charters function in several locations, yet are considered one school.
"Why not combine the two schools (using both buildings)and not transfer anybody?"
Having taught at Fernbank and Medlock in the 90s, I was totally expecting that would be what happened. Maybe it has to do with Briar Vista needing more students to make its numbers and Medlock is so close to Fernbank, that area already has a school (Fernbank) in place.
Willivee is the next street from Medlock (3 minute walk). If you live on the left hand side of the street, you go to Medlock. If you live on the right hand side of the street, you are bused to Fernbank. It's been that way for 30 years or more. Very bizarre.
The people that live in the Medlock area are much like the Fernbank people in that they work at Emory and CDC and many own small businesses in the Emory or Midtown area.
"Here's a thought - according to the DCSS website, Fernbank has a capacity of 578 and Medlock a capacity of 374. Without any renovations, that's a total capacity of 952 - over the 900 student target. Why not combine the two schools (using both buildings)and not transfer anybody?"
This idea has been floated around Fernbank for years - house PreK-1 or 2 at Medlock and the older grades at Fernbank. This idea was mentioned to Fernbank's board rep (last year) but he shot it down.
or - flip flop and do like Dunwoody - make Medlock a 4-5 academy.
Medlock has always been one of my favorite schools - it's sad to think it might close. It would also be a blight on that neighborhood - as DCSS finds themselves doing to many neighborhoods these days. The Druid Hills property makes that area look run down and the Heritage site is attracting mischief at night. If they actually do close 12 more schools, I think they should identify plans for each one. Heritage (already closed), for example, would make an excellent park - actually so would the Druid Hills property. Tear down that old dumpy building and at least leave a nice green space until such time as we sell it or decide to build something new there.
It would be nice if DCSS had the same philosophy as Fulton -
We believe school buildings should support student learning. Take at look at any of our schools. You will not find cinder-block warehouses. You will find buildings that were designed for kids. They have the infrastructure needed to support today’s technological classroom, they have wide halls and a quality design that accommodates class sizes. And they look nice, as well. A school is a very large building. We believe it should be an asset to a community, not an eyesore.
Since Don McChesney made such a point of Wake County NC's redistricting criteria at the last board meeting I found this article very interesting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011107063.html?hpid=topnews
I would dispute Don's claim that they (Wake County) used academic performance as a redistricting consideration - it seems to have been socio-economic status that was the criteria.
Despite Don's statement to the contrary it seems as though this is precisely how McLendon, Freedom and Clarkston were redistricted according to DeKalb plan. This seems to be fertile grounds for a law suit if it goes through unchanged.
DCSS:
"We believe school administration buildings should support the comfort of our administrators. Take at look at our new administration building. You will not find a cinder-block warehouse. You will find a $30,000,000 building designed for upper management."
@3:20 It was $30 million of SPLOST money that was supposed to go to repair/refurbish/update school buildings in which teachers are supposed to teach children.
RHIP Rank Has Its Privileges. Taxpayers are the grunts who support the privileged. Education of children is the vehicle used to get the money from the taxpayers to support the privileged.
@Anon 11:42
What was the reason the board rep gave for shooting the idea down?
Which rep was it, McChesney or Walker?
I'd like to know, because I'm going to follow it up.
I agree the closing of Medlock was driven by the under-enrollment of neighboring schools. I also agree that the Medlock neighborhood is much like the Fernbank neighborhood - the two civic associations work together and some of the folks in both neighborhoods belong to both.
DeKalbparent, it was Don. I am not sure about the reason for the negative response, I was not actually present for the conversation it was recounted to me by the "suggestor". But this idea has had a fair amount of support at Fernbank and probably much more now in light of the new proposals.
I would be interested to hear how your follow up with Don goes - I understand he is not interested in any suggestions that do not address the entire system.
Renting Medlock to The Museum School of Avondale is a win-win for all parties.
And the most dedicated set of parents in the county are from the Museum School. Bless them for the heck they went through, because the DCSS Central Office did everything in its power to stop them. They hung tough and fought hard, and finally have a fine school to be proud of (albeit with no permanent home).
DeKalbparent, the Save Medlock Committee would love to be involved in discussions on this topic and would be willing to put work into investigating it. You can contact us through our medlockpta AT gmail.com address.
The Medlock community is obviously very distraught about our school being in danger and would talk about all sorts of options. The Museum School at Avondale moving into our building is an idea ... but one I'd only be interested in if former Medlock students would be eligible for admission, which they're not now.
"The Museum School at Avondale moving into our building is an idea ... but one I'd only be interested in if former Medlock students would be eligible for admission, which they're not now."
That's a very reasonable request and knowing the Museum School parents and staff, I;m sure they would jump on that.
I think they would need to change their charter to do that. This is a problem with the way they were set up. They made a very narrow attendance area from which to pull students.
In the student database each student's "home school" is coded with the school number so teachers and principals can see where they are coming from. That's how the numbers of sending ad receiving were extracted.
so everyone fighting overcrowding redistricting based on bad numnbers need to get the true home school populations from your principals...
"so everyone fighting overcrowding redistricting based on bad numnbers need to get the true home school populations from your principals... '
You will not get that information fro principals voluntarily. Remember that they report to someone in the Central Office who has colleagues who send their children wherever they want. You would be surprised what they will do for one another - they are in a political world on Mountain Industrial and nothing else matters.
As a Sagamore parent with a potential move to Briarvista, I have concerns about the dual track program at BV. Since the Montessori program now requires starting in 1st grade or previous Montessori instruction, will the conventional education classes catch a disproportionate number of the transient population and most likely more of the economically disadvantaged?
Post a Comment