The topic of magnet schools and their associated costs is often discussed on this blog. In fact, the magnets sometimes take over conversations that start out on a completely unrelated topic. Bloggers main concern is the cost of magnet schools—all of which are given extra, locally-funded points (teachers). After the cuts to last year's budget, the following magnet programs have the following numbers of extra teaching staff:
DeKalb Elementary School of the Arts - 7
Wadsworth ES - 3
Clifton ES - 2
Evansdale ES - 2
Kittredge ES - 6
Chamblee MS - 4
Chapel Hill MS - 2
Columbia MS - 1
Chamblee HS - 7
Columbia HS - 6
DeKalb School of the Arts - 7
SW DeKalb - 6
One of our researchers for the blog has tracked down some enlightening data on the subject. Arabia Mountain High School is not technically a magnet school. Rather it is a "choice" school with an environmental science and engineering magnet component. Arabia Mountain successfully operates at a much lower per student cost than comparable schools even though it doesn’t receive additional points.
Check out what our blogger dug up on high school costs per student comparing SW DeKalb with Arabia:
I. Southwest DeKalb HS:
Cost per student (including benefits cost): $6,323
Personnel Total: 172
Total School based employee salary cost: $8,433,646
Total School based employee salary cost (including 25% benefits): $10,542,057
Administrators: 1 Principal and 5 Assistant Principals
Instructional Coaches: 2
Fast Facts:
- 65 (38%) of SWD school based employees are non-teaching staff
- 107 (62%) of SWD school based employees are teachers (directly instruct students)
- 56 (33%) of SWD school based employees are Content Area teachers (math, science, social studies, and language arts) - i.e. totally responsible for AYP results
- Average teacher's pay (including benefits): $69,361
- Average administrator's pay (including benefits): $116,940
- Percentage of SWD HS students (based on NCLB Test Takers) who are classified as Economically Disadvantaged: 62%
- Percentage of SWD HS students who are Special Education Students (Based on State Report Card): 7.6%
II. Arabia Mountain High School:
Cost per student (including benefits cost): $4,980
Student Enrollment: 1,473 (October, 2010 State FTE student enrollment numbers)
Personnel Total: 130
Total School based employee salary cost: $5,868,765
Total School based employee salary cost (including benefits): $7,335,956
Administrators: 1 Principal and 4 Assistant Principals
Instructional Coaches: 0
Fast Facts:
- 45 (35%) of Arabia Mtn. HS school based employees are non-teaching staff
- 85 (65%) of Arabia Mtn. HS school based employees are teachers (directly instruct students)
- 50 (38%) of Arabia Mtn. HS school based employees are Content Area teachers (math, science, social studies and language arts) - i.e. totally responsible for AYP results
- Average teacher's pay (including benefits): $59,304
- Average administrator's pay (including benefits): $109,786
- Percentage of Arabia Mtn. HS students (based on NCLB Test Takers) who are classified as Economically Disadvantaged: 52%
- Percentage of Arabia Mtn. HS who are Special Education Students (Based on State Report Card): 3.4%
Much has been blogged about Arabia Mountain High School being a high cost center school built for an elite group of students. However, comparing it’s cost per pupil with an established high school such as Southwest Dekalb High School which also houses a magnet program, Arabia Mountain High School seems to have a very reasonable per pupil cost. Nor does Arabia Mountain High School appear to be elite. This school has a fairly high number of low-income students (52%), especially when compared to Kittredge (14%) and Wadsworth (36%). Arabia Mountain has eight Special Education teachers to serve students staffed into the Special Education program so they are not screening Students with Disabilities out of the program. Entry into the Arabia Mountain Environmental Energy and Engineering Magnet Program does not appear to be based on being “gifted” or in that upper 5% in mental ability so many posters seem to advocate for magnet programs. Although I’ll grant that the physical plant and the science and technology equipment that went into this school was extremely expensive, the energy cost must be exceptionally low (a fact that will be of extreme importance in the future), and you've got to admit that the ongoing cost per pupil ($4,980) is impressive. Remember that 90% of DCSS’s annual expenditure is in personnel cost.
Most of the lower per pupil cost is driven by the lower administrator cost per employee and the lower teacher cost per employee. Arabia Mountain High School per teacher and per administrator costs is substantially lower than the overall county per teacher and per administrator costs, which are $68,000 and $114,000 respectively (25% benefit cost included). Arabia Mountain had substantial teacher turnover last year, and seasoned science and math teachers are extremely difficult to replace. Close to half of Arabia Mountain’s teachers are in their first or second year of teaching (per the Georgia Certification website) - most with only a bachelor's degree. Time will tell if they stay. If they remain, their pay will slowly increase so the per pupil cost will advance to the point that it is comparable to most DCSS regular education schools. Hopefully, this crop of new teachers will remain at Arabia Mountain even though the pay for a math or science major is so alluring in the private sector.
Arabia Mountain shows creative thinking in its educational programming and overall administration and organization. There’s a part time engineer and a retired engineer for direct student instruction. There are no Instructional Coaches. They offer a full array of AP classes including AP Calculus AB. The students are required to wear uniforms. Their list of business partners is extensive. Go to Arabia Mountain HS’s website to see the summer requirements. There were no custodians listed on the website so that expense in this analysis was based on other DCSS high schools’ custodial data. I've heard that the custodial support was outsourced at Arabia Mountain. If that’s true, it seems that Ms. Tyson might have looked to data from this school when she was making the decision to take custodial and all other outsourcing off the table for DCSS in her budget balancing efforts.
Even though Arabia Mountain serves a substantial amount of magnet students, it doesn't cost any more to operate than the vast majority of the regular education schools. The students have a specialized educational interest. Although it’s imperative that Arabia Mountain produces results in terms of increased academic achievement, magnets should also be thought of in terms of educational interests, not just reserved for students who score well on academic tests.
Comparing and equalizing cost centers and ensuring equitable access to resources is imperative if EVERY student in DCSS is going to have:
1. A clean and safe learning environment
2. A competent teacher in a reasonably sized classroom
3. Abundant access to cutting edge science and technology equipment
Ms. Tyson and the BOE need to be looking at each school in DeKalb in terms of cost centers, how that cost compares with other schools, comparing the compensation and cost of groups of DCSS employees doing similar job functions in other school systems, and measuring this information against the academic results of DCSS students. This is the essence of cost/benefit analysis. All the expensive personnel and programs in the world along with those “non-negotiable” Central Office edicts will not produce the results taxpayers want and students deserve. A good education does not happen anywhere but in the schoolhouse and most specifically in the classrooms. Let’s make them equitable and let’s make them cost effective.
Sources:
Arabia Mountain High School Website
Southwest DeKalb High School Website
2010 Georgia DOE Enrollment Data
2010 State Salary and Travel Audit
DCSS Community Net
Georgia Teacher Certification
(Data corrections are appreciated. There are no paid positions on this community blog, and no one is perfect.)
53 comments:
The person that spoke about the Special need dept at AMHS, you should dig for the information on how successful they were last year educating these types of students? The turn over rate was high I wonder why? Is AMHS a title one school?
Great data! I have a couple of questions...
- Were the students at the AMHS Annex at Lithonia High included in this formula?
- Regarding SWD, since it is an established school, are there teachers there that have been a part of DCSS for many years? If so, could teacher salaries be a but higher than AMHS due to tenure?
In this atmosphere of equitability and if DCSS wants to have one single magnet in "middle" DeKalb at Avondale, why isn't AMHS part of this plan? I'm just saying.. You have all these magnet kids that will have to travel to Avondale, from all over the county, except for those at AMHS.
If we're going to look at things the way some BOE members see it, then we need to make sure the magnet kids at AMHS are moved along to Avondale too. The fact this school was left out of this process is amazing. Why must everyone sacrifice except for the chosen few that go to AMHS.
Here is an idea, why don't we try to copy the success of AMHS at CCHS, SWD and other places? I'm all ears here.
DCSS, where we celebrate mediocrity and punish success!
AMHS is not a Magnet school.
I know it's not a magnet school, but why can't we duplicate the successes at AMHS? Everyone in the county is feeling pain here except for the families at AMHS. Why? Everything must be put on the table during this process. Perception is a big deal. I want to know why AMHS was never considered in any plan? It's funny when the BOE members talk about things being equitable to the south, unless of course you are talking about AMHS. Come on folks, let's celebrate success and stop punishing the parents who are trying to get their kids a decent education. I'm so tired of these arguments us/them, north/south, homeowners/renters and magnet/traditional. Damn it we're DeKalb County citizens and if we don't get this right and keep our petty racist, income inducing arguments in this process, we're doomed as a county.
AMHS has no instructional change coaches because they are still making AYP............
Some things to clarify -
I do think that many of the teachers at Arabia are new - they also have interesting backgrounds and seem to be teaching in a field they are trained for in the private sector (somewhat like Teach for America)... however, Arabia also has some very senior, experienced teachers. Lisa Lee, who recently was talked about on this blog as being a fabulous teacher from the CMS magnet program, taught at Arabia (until recently when she took a new opportunity in Denver).
The point is - Arabia is doing a very good job - without the extra funding the magnet schools get. I think perhaps, Arabia should serve as a model for most of our high schools (throw in a vocational school and an alternative and we'd be good to go!)
I think magnets could do just fine to function as small programs inside regular schools - sort of like the Honors Program at UGA. Individual high schools can also provide art and music programs - eliminating the need for the very, very expensive DSA. There could be ONE arts program that is a magnet within a school that might attract former DSA students.
These things need addressed. The times have changed. We have to crunch the numbers and find ways to make the most of what we have --- for each and every student in DeKalb. Special programs and tiny schools that cost more per student should be the first things to go (well - after the administration gets cut and reorganized to function more efficiently).
Things that make Arabia successful include - experienced teachers, and order and discipline. Students wear uniforms. They also have Saturday school to make up lost ground...
"You have all these magnet kids that will have to travel to Avondale, from all over the county, except for those at AMHS."
I think the Arabia Mountain location - right next to Arabia Mountain - is an integral part of the environmental science magnet program. It's not easy to move a mountain and the protected green space that serve the magnet program housed within the school.
Very funny...
Also - I like the idea of an Honors Program - in every high school - or at least a select high school in each zone... A "high achiever, high honors" program within the regular school. You could even assign a specific team of teachers for the program. Just not "extra" teachers, "extra" transportation, "extra" administrators, etc...
Arabia Mountain operates at a lower cost per pupil than most other DCSS schools and offers the magnet programs of environmental science and engineering inside the school. Why would anyone want to move it? To make it cost more - not less per pupil?
DCSS needs to discontinue Wadsworth and Kittredge and offer 4 or 5 high achiever magnet programs WITHIN existing schools all over the county, and they need to do it for no more cost per pupil than
the regular education students. Other magnet PROGRAMS (not schools) such as science, technology, engineering, etc. could also operate INSIDE regular education schools as well. We certainly have enough demand for "choice" and turn away qualified students every year.
We will never get past the "luck of the draw" unless we bring the cost of operating magnet programs to the level of the regular education programs. That is not possible unless you operate these programs as PROGRAMS within the regular education schools rather than stand alone schools with all the redundant administration and support personnel and facilities cost that goes along with them.
You can't move a mountain is right! This is what this consolidation/redistricting thing is about! Clew was scared to death of it! We're all scared to death of it!
Most of the stakeholders here just want to see all the data before we all go jumping in. We need an audit of the magnet programs, what works, what doesn't work etc... I don't think the previous poster wanted to move AMHS, I think he wanted to know why they were not a part of the conversation. This whole thing is about perception and transparency, something this DCSS leadership is sorely lacking right now.
Trust is at an all time low and it's because of perception. Why hide the 2004 audit? Why hide the minutes of meetings? People can handle the truth, it's the lack of that as well as the details that have a lot of folks concerned.
@ anonymous 7:51
"The person that spoke about the Special need dept at AMHS, you should dig for the information on how successful they were last year educating these types of students? The turn over rate was high I wonder why? Is AMHS a title one school?"
Not to be rude, but why don't you try to post a few facts instead of asking someone else to "dig" up the data?
Here are the stats for AYP for Arabia Mtn.:
I. Math
A. All Students:
Meets +Exceeds: 79.%
B. Students with Disabilities:
Meets+Exceeds: 72.2%
II. English Language Arts
A. All Students:
Meets +Exceeds: 96.5%
B. Students with Disabilities:
Meets+Exceeds: 94.4%
51% of AMHS students are classified as Students with Disabilities. 52% of their students are classified as Economically Disadvantaged.
They are not a Title 1 school.
See - that took less than 5 minutes to find out and post.
Would you like to do a little research and compare them with other schools that have half of their students classified as Economically Disadvantaged and half of their students classified as Students with Disabilities? That seems a fair comparison to me. How about Druid Hills? They have almost the same percentage of Economically Disadvantaged and Students with Disabilities.
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=103&SchoolId=22974&T=1&FY=2010
Regarding the turnover rate, it was obviously very high since so many of the teachers are new (the article stated that). That's critical to address and hopefully scrambling for those teachers has taught them a lesson. Just because you're a new and young teacher is not always a negative. Many of these AMHS young new teachers have very solid backgrounds in their content areas.
@ anonymous 11:06
"I don't think the previous poster wanted to move AMHS, I think he wanted to know why they were not a part of the conversation."
And that was the point of the response. AMHS has an environmental science magnet that depends on its location - the Arabia Mountain preserve.
The point of the article is - here is a school with a magnet program ad a substantial magnet population that operates at no more than and often lower than the regular education schools.
That's the real cost/benefit analysis for magnet programs. The questions are:
1. Can DCSS get them to operate at a cost per pupil equitable to the magnet programs?
2. Can more "choice" be offered if the cost per pupil does not cost DCSS taxpayers more in per pupil expenditures?
Currently, we're busing students from schools that did not make AYP into already overcrowded schools and we have many administrative transfers in place in those same schools. These are the "choice" options in place in DCSS. They aren't working as parents who are seeing their children redistricted to make room for these students.
Do you think that parents in schools that DID NOT MAKE AYP would be shipping their kids off to be packed their kids in trailers in the few overcrowded schools that MADE AYP if they had viable "choices" that were easily accessible geographically.
Why not provide some real "choice" all over the county? MORE magnet programs, easily accessible geographically, housed within the existing schools and with a cost that is comparable to the regular education schools?
Building a giant magnet school will consume tens of millions of SPLOST IV dollars and will be difficult for all students to travel to except for the Central DeKalb students.
Cost comparisons need to be made between building this giant magnet school and placing smaller magnet programs within regular education schools.
Oops! Sorry. Should have been:
That's the real cost/benefit analysis for magnet programs. The questions are:
1. Can DCSS get the magnet progrmas to operate at a cost per pupil equitable to the regular education program?
2. Can more "choice" be offered if the cost per pupil for participating in a magnet program does not cost DCSS taxpayers any more in per pupil expenditure for participating in the regular education program?
Lisa Lee left DeKalb County from Henderson. She asked to leave Arabia Mountian. In for one would like to know why she left.
There was apparently quite a few teachers who left Arabia Mountain after year 1.
Wonder why Angela Pringle was "kicked upstairs"?
Tthe scores are very good at AMHS. It is operating at a very low per pupil cost. It runs a substantial magnet program. That seems to be the point if you're looking at cost effectiveness.
Vanderlyn's principal who led the school for years and had very good scores was transferred for no good cause or reason. Does that make Vanderlyn a nefarious and bad school?
The custodial service was, I believe, included in the project cost for Arabia Mtn, since special cleaning supplies, etc. were required.
As a parent of a SWD HS Magnet Student, I am concerned this information shared is blog is deceiving to say to least. The comparative analysis should include cost analysis from all the "Magnet" programs throughout DCSS. The data compares two different instructional programs that will provide different results located within a 10 mile radius. Where is the cost analysis for the other programs?
Have at it, SWD Magnet parent.
The documents are there: do the cost analysis yourself. This is not a subscription service: this is a self-service blog of people looking for the truth.
But here's a better question: why have you not asked your school system to provide this information, as efforts proceed with radical redistricting? Can you see why it's germane to the conversation to note parents have to generate this data piecemeal, because the County doesn't share it?
@ 12:50
SWD HS has a relatively low cost per pupil. That was part of the point of the article. Both schools house regular ed and magnet students yet both have very reasonable per pupil cost. AMHS has a lower teacher cost because they have so many 1st and 2nd year teachers.
Why don't you do some comparisons among high schools. I'm sure you'll find both SWD and AMHS are both at or below the per pupil costs of DCSS schools. AMHS was discussed in detail here because so much as been said about it being "too costly". That's not been said about SWD soothe comparison was to show that both of these schools that serve regular ed with a magnet program in them are comparable in cost. AMHS is not the super expensive elit school suggested by many on this blog.
Any additional comparisons are appreciated. SWD and AMHS will still come out looking good.
Great new website - link and sign petition.
http://www.decentralizedekalb.org/
What will Dr. Walker say when he finds out that less money per pupil is being spent for the pupils of AMHS than other high schools? Will he consider this a success or part of a plot to deprive his constituents of funds?
@ anonymous 4:22
You must see this as about Dr. Walker. I see this as a data analysis showing the real cost of programs and schools. Until we can see the real cost of programs and schools and personnel cost centers as compared to the return on investment as measured by student achievement, DCSS will forever by mired in the mud of opinion, hearsay and subject to nepotism and cronyism.
What I would really like to see is a data analysis regarding the Office of School Improvement. I would like to see exactly how much money goes into this department and the resulting data for student achievement that can be directly linked to the expenditures of these tax payer dollars.
AMHS isn't a magnet...but don't the kids have to apply and go thru a selection process ?
@ anonymous 5:36
"AMHS isn't a magnet...but don't the kids have to apply and go thru a selection process ?"
According to the DCSS website they do. But what does that have to do with their low cost? Wadsworth ES is a magnet and they go through a selection process, but their cost per pupil in personnel cost is $14,000 per pupil.
Anon 12:50 PM (SW parent) - I interpreted the point of this post as "why can't we duplicate the Arabia program?" Nothing against SW and Chamblee - but you both get funding for 6 or 7 EXTRA teachers - and smaller class sizes for the magnet programs. Do you really do a better job than Arabia - which doesn't cost as much - or use as many resources? I think Arabia could be a good example to duplicate at our other high schools.
Not sure where the above special ed data came from, but this is what the post actually says -
- Percentage of Arabia Mtn. HS students (based on NCLB Test Takers) who are classified as Economically Disadvantaged: 52%
- Percentage of Arabia Mtn. HS who are Special Education Students (Based on State Report Card): 3.4%
Cere - That percentage of Special Ed accounts for some (by no means the majority) of the lower per pupil costs at AMHS. Special Ed students have lower class sizes, and paras are required - resulting in higher per-pupil cost.
Compare AMHS - 3.4% with
Druid Hills - 10.3%
Lakeside - 9.5%
SW DeKalb - 7.6%
MLK - 8.8%
Tucker - 9.1%
Stephenson - 8.2%
Redan - 9.0%
No value judgements here, just an observation.
I still agree that per-pupil spending needs a long hard hairy eyeball look!
@ Dekalbparent
"Special Ed students have lower class sizes, and paras are required - resulting in higher per-pupil cost.
Compare AMHS - 3.4% with
Druid Hills - 10.3%
Lakeside - 9.5%
SW DeKalb - 7.6%"
SWD has 14 Special Education teachers - total cost in salary and benefits (25%) - $945,737 ($67,552 per teacher)
Arabia Mountain has 8 Special Education Teachers - total cost in salary and benefits(25%) - $484,373 ($60,546 per teacher)
Difference in Arabia Mountain and Southwest DeKalb Special Education teacher expenditures is $461,364. That would give Arabia Mountain a $461,364 advantage in per pupil funding equaling an additional $313 dollars per pupil they don't have to spend on special education students in terms of extra Special Ed personnel. Add the extra $313 to Arabia Mountain and it's $5,294 per pupil. That's still very low.
Look on their respective websites, look their salaries up, and then run the numbers if you don't believe me.
Arabia Mountain is extraordinarily cost efficient.
As an aside, the special education number of 3.5% and 7.6% does not correlate with the percentage of test takers classified as Students with Disabilities. So a more reasonable approach is to look up the salaries of all of the Special Ed teachers in a school and see what these Special Ed teachers cost on a per pupil basis. That's just what I did above with SWD and Arabia Mtn.
BTW - Lakeside has 14 Special Ed teachers. I haven't calculated their cost yet but I'll post that when I do. Maybe you'd like to calculate Druid Hills.
Cere, I don't know where you got your information on the size of magnet classes on the high school level. I have children in the magnet program at CCHS. ALL their magnet classes are very large. The school only allows ONE gifted course (which has absolutely nothing to do with magnet). For juniors the gifted class is English. They began the year with 37 students in the magnet/gifted English class. It took almost 2 months but through a lot of juggling the gifted English class is down to a cozy 25 students.
I don't know what CCHS is doing with the 6 magnet points but the classes are all crowded, the teachers are grumpy and there are no extra supplies or technology. CCHS does have a couple courses that have few students, i.e. a very advanced math course. Maybe this is overburdening the other courses.
I understand that the Lakeside students take more "gifted" classes each year and these have smaller numbers of students. I really don't understand how Lakeside does this with the overcrowding.
I believe Chamblee uses one of their points for a counselor.
Monkey Wrench
1 - Magnet programs contain high numbers of gifted students.
2 - School systems are paid more to educate gifted students than regular ed.
2a- That extra funding does not come from local tax dollars.
3 - "Points" allocated to magnet programs do NOT have to be spent on the magnet programs.
4 - Points are spent at the school principal's discretion. If a principal wants a teacher, that's one point. Want an extra assistant principal or counselor, that's 1.5 points.
Extra state money for gifted = extra points for the school = money that does not have to actually be spent on the gifted.
Lets no forget we've been down this road before and there are schools that get extra points that have nothing to do with magnet or gifted.
The true expense lies in employing so many people, in a SCHOOL SYSTEM, that have no direct role in the actual mission of a school system - to educate the kids.
You guys are chasing the red herring.
I'm generally on board with you, Cere, but I'm not on your side when it comes to this issue. You're oversimplifying a point system that takes is so much more than one school gets more than others. AMHS is successful because they are far more selective of the students that they enroll. Plus, if you want to get technical, their cost per student is less because their school is brand-spanking new. They have more of everything -- from computers to a school-ready learning environment. Let's see that school recreate that in any of the over-crowded buildings that are falling down -- including the much-debated centralized Avondale High School. It would never happen.
Let's get back to the real issues in this county -- more than half on the payroll are in the Mountain Industrial Center and never see students at all. Some just got 44% raises while teachers haven't seen raises in 4-5 years. Talking trash about the magnets, some of the few successful schools in DCSS, is merely blurring the real issues that need to be approached. You're putting the blame and the punishment on pockets of kids when it's the highest up that deserve the finger.
Cere at 10:45. They already have this. It is the gifted program and the accelerated program. For example, my Dunwoody high school student takes four classes per semester. One is an elective (PE this semester) and it is a general class. The other three are either gifted or accelerated. This semester my student opted for two gifted (math and spanish) and one accelerated (science). At Dunwoody you can take 4-6 gifted classes per year (2 -3 per semester).
Even if there are gaps and assumptions that make this analysis less than 100% accurate, I think the point remains the same and should be taken seriously by every reader.
Regular readers of this blog know that I have pegged myself as a "large school format" guy. I am 100% convinced that much of what we debate here is a secondary or tertiary consequence of our far-flung, too numerous, and aged school sites.
When looking at a cost analysis at a school house level, I think we should also find metrics that include what I would call an amortized capital cost in the figures. In this way, we would be able to account somewhat for the benefits of operating in newer schools versus older schools AND take into account the capital outlays.
We need bigger, modernized school facilities across the board. The $70 million earn-marked for a new CCHS will be a good test of our leadership's common sense in these areas. There is no justification for spending this kind of cash on the current enrollment in the attendance area or even with the magnet enrollment. Compare this $40k per student capital outlay versus the $11k per student outlay at CK. How does this make sense? It would take an enrollment of over 6,300 students at CCHS to equate the capital/student ratio.
This is not a shot at CCHS or SWD, it is an attempt to change the debate from "my school is better than your school" to "how do we run an efficient public school operation."
@Anon 8:22
I did not use the SWD percentage of test takers for my figures - I used the % of Special Ed students from each school's demographics. (I know the difference - my child is counted among the SWD for her school, but not among the Special Ed students, because she has a disability, but she is not in a Special Ed class)
I'm not following your point - my point was that because there are fewer Special Ed students at AMHS, there are fewer Special Ed teachers and paras. The cost of the teachers is thus spread out among more students, simply because the number of students they can serve is larger. Your figures comparing AMHS with SWD corroborate that point.
I will be happy to do the math for DHHS, but I'm not sure what it would prove - I was not slamming AMHS; I was making a point to Cere that some small part of the lower per-pupil spending is due to a demographic difference.
BTW, I'm with Kim - we constantly lose sight of the larger picture, which is that we are serving our children in an inefficient way (which also serves to perpetuate the "my neighborhood/your neighborhood" problem), and our administration is highly inefficient.
Short of a magic wand, I see no way to remedy this situation, but without doing so, we will continue to fight among ourselves for insufficient resources, and we will never get to fixing the root problem. I sense that Kim is wearying of the circles we are running in..
I have good days and I have bad days :)
I'll never give up on the goals I've talked about - it is a horrible disservice to the children of DeKalb that we have such a bloated (and top-heavy) and unwieldy system. Not to mention, it seems to be costing all tax payers too much!
This is the only reason I'm hard on those that are in the "booster" class - there have to be "loosers" in the short run to move this system to where it needs to be. I'm not looking at the block-by-block details of the proposals. Let's face it, the only REAL decision DCSS has put on the table is about Magnet programs. The rest is minutiae from a system perspective.
The other piece we keep overlooking is the "what's next" part ... if they go with the status quo, there is really no way I see to move forward any time soon. If they centralize, they are creating wriggle room for subsequent decisions. To me, that is the missing debate - what's next?
@ anonymous 10:12
'AMHS is successful because they are far more selective of the students that they enroll."
Aren't all magnets and theme and choice schools more selective of who they enroll? Do you not want choice schools to have any selectivity? Should technology magnets enroll students who have no interest in technology and arts magnets enroll students who have no artistic talent, and high achiever magnets enroll students who have o interest in higher level and higher demanding academics?
"Plus, if you want to get technical, their cost per student is less because their school is brand-spanking new."
Please note that the cost per pupil analysis done totally based on personnel salary and benefits (90% of the per pupil cost for DCSS) and it was noted that they have a large upfront cost in capital layout, but a much smaller energy cost.
"They have more of everything -- from computers to a school-ready learning environment."
And wasn't the point that ALL DCSS students deserve:
1. A clean and safe learning environment
2. A competent teacher in a reasonably sized classroom
3. Abundant access to cutting edge science and technology equipment
"Let's get back to the real issues in this county -- more than half on the payroll are in the Mountain Industrial Center and never see students at all. "
Exactly. We cannot ignore:
1. Security personnel (217 for $12,500,000) - astronomical compared to every other system
2. Counselors (245 for $22,500,000), Social Workers (41 for $3,000,000), and the Parent Center facilitators (73 for $4,500,000) who are paid more than teachers, cost tens of millions, weren't touched in the layoffs. These 359 positions perform redundant functions and cost a total of $30,000,000.
2. MIS personnel (300 costing $21,000,000) who also are paid more than teachers, cost tens of millions a year, went virtually untouched in the budget cutting,and contract all of the installation and maintenance out to Dell for the computers and interactive boards. This group gave us eSis, SchoolNet and have made/make the decisions on hundreds of millions of dollars of technology expenditures with NO teacher input.
3. Instructional Coaches (90 costing $9,000,000) who are paid more than teachers and never teach a single child.
4. Special Ed Lead Teachers (94 who cost $8,2050,000) are in charge of paperwork for the special ed program and never teach a single child.
...and the list goes on
Do you see why it's important to look at cost centers? Cost centers can be schools like Arabia Mountain or groups of employees like the Security personnel or the Special Ed Lead teachers. The point is grade level and content area teachers are totally responsible for the delivery of content in DCSS, and they are the positions we continue to cut. How do you think we can afford all those social workers, and MIS personnel and Lead teachers and many more.
The approximately 1,000 employees listed above account for $81,000,000 in expenditures. They never teach a single child and they were untouched while teacher positions were lost.
Until we look at every cost center in relation to the teachers who teach students math, science, social studies and language arts - the ONLY subject matter students HAVE to master and the sole determiner of AYP, we will not be looking at Return on Investment in DCSS.
Was this really more data than you wanted to know?
Well said, Anon. I keep jabbering about having a "dashboard" of health metrics for monitoring our system on its own and vis-a-vis other systems. At the heart of my dream is the exactly that - measuring the efficiency of delivery the core mission you described.
DeKalb just needs to get away from being a jobs program and become a school system.
@ Dekalbpaent
"I did not use the SWD percentage of test takers for my figures - I used the % of Special Ed students from each school's demographics. (I know the difference - my child is counted among the SWD for her school, but not among the Special Ed students, because she has a disability, but she is not in a Special Ed class)
"
You have a point, but remember that the special ed program cost for a schools is based solely on the personnel cost of your special ed teachers no matter how many or few students they serve.
Arabia Mtn. has 8 special ed teachers per 1,473 students for whom they pay $484,373 in salary and benefits. Now spread that $484,373 over the 1,473 students (equals $328) and that is the per pupil price Arabia Mtn. students incur for the extra special ed students $328 per pupil.
SWD has 14 special ed teachers for almost 1,667 students for whom they pay $945,737 in salary and benefits. Now spread that $945,737 over the 1,667 students (equals $567) and that is the per pupil price Arabia Mtn. students incur for the extra special ed students - $567 per pupil.
You can see that we're only adding $200 to $300 to the per pupil cost if you look at the difference between the two.
It's complicated a little by the fact that Arabia special ed teachers ($60,546 per teacher) considerably less than SWD special ed teachers ($67,552), but even if the special ed teacher salaries were equal the difference in spending on their special ed teachers is quite small on a per pupil basis.
Arabia Mountain no matter how you cut it is a low cost center, and has high achievement scores. It has a considerable number of Students with Disabilities (SWD)and this is the main area that has the problems with making AYP and it has a considerable number of Economically Disadvantaged students and this is the second group that has the most problem making AYP.
While it is true that SWD are not all special ed, the fact that they have 8 special ed teachers tells us that they have a considerable need in the special ed area. Those special ed teachers are there to serve the special ed population, not the SWD population.
Oops. The hour is late. Probably should have said:
While it is true that Arabia Mountain Students with Disabilities are not all special ed, the fact that Arabia has 8 special ed teachers tells us that they have a considerable need in the special ed area. Those special ed teachers are there to serve the special ed population, not the Students with Disabilities population.
(Didn't want to be confusing when I said SWD - thought you might think the acronym of SWD was Southwest Dekalb.)
Anon 11:43...
In point #2...don't omit our Prevention/Intervention Department
costs.
I don't understand why every high school doesn't have an honors program. I attended high school in Tennessee and there, every high school has Remedial, Standard, Advanced, and Advanced Placement tracks housed in one high school. Kids are tested in eighth grade to see where they fall and then based on their performance they can move up or fall back as needed. Some kids have split tracks with AP classes in Math and Science while taking Advanced classes in the Humanities.
It's easy and affordable to implement such a program and you don't have to have special schools that need extra funding.
Dawn at 1:26
DCSS high schools already have this, although the tracks have different names than your high school used. What makes you think they don't have them?
Here is how it works. If you qualify for gifted (based on testing as per state guidelines) some or most of your high school classes are classified as gifted. In order to be classified as gifted they must be taught by "gifted certified" teachers and have no more than a certain number of kids in the class (22 I think-- not sure).
The next track down from gifted is "acceelerated." If you are in this track, you can choose to take some or all of your academic classes (math, world language, english, science, social studies) as "accelerated," which is similar to "honors."
Then there is the general track.
Regarding remedial, I think there is a track for kids who need extra help, but I don't know a lot of details. Maybe someone can chime in. I know with Math, it involves taking a "general" math class, and a second class called "math support" which is basically where they tutor those students to allow them extra instruction time so that they can keep up with the "general" level math curriculum.
Regardless of which track you are in, you can take classes outside your track (except only "gifted" kids can take gifted classes.) For example, a "gifted" kid might decide to take accelerated math rather than gifted math one semester, perhaps because he is not strong in math or perhaps he just likes the teacher who is teaching the accelerated class better.
So many of the comments have been about gifted needing special programs. But this article also makes a point about magnets not just being for gifted students, but also for students with special talents or interests. Appealing to the special talents and interests of students is always beneficial, particularly if it can be done at the same cost as they would incur in the regular education program.
Behavior and motivation are improved when students who have a compelling educational interest are able to pursue that interest within the school setting. We are missing the boat on choice if we don't set up smaller magnet programs within schools working alongside the regular education program.
DCSS needs to have:
1. Cost efficient magnet programs within the regular education schools
2. Magnet programs that appeal to and serve the unusual and intense educational interests of groups of students
3. Smaller magnet programs that can be replicated in enough schools to make it geographically tenable for parents to transport their children
4. Enough magnet programs so that children who meet the qualifications of the various magnet programs can successfully enroll and not be subject to the "luck of the draw"
5. Equitable distribution of funding among regular education schools so that the majority of children who are educated in a traditional setting will have access to reasonable class sizes, competent teachers, and up-to-date science and technology equipment.
6. A magnet program is not just an "escape" from inferior and ill funded regular education schools. Rather, a compelling educational reason should exist for the magnet students to leave the regular education program.
Excellent suggestions! I agree with all six points.
Remember this?
http://www.championnewspaper.com/local34.html
“Last time I counted, MLK had more than 30 trailers,” said School Board member Jay Cunningham, in whose district the school sits. “Growth is outpacing the school system. This school will go a long way in helping us with a major overcrowding problem.”
This Friday??? Get ready!!
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/news/26616840/detail.html
"Carnes said by Friday the district will know how much money they will save with their redistricting plan."
Interesting stuff on Hightower:
http://dunwoodytalk.blogspot.com/2011/01/is-this-really-about-access.html
Demographics for Dunwoody Cluster schools (including Hightower since it is part of the Dunwoody cluster)
Demographics (percentage)
Austin White 70, Asian 15, Black 8, Hispanic 3
Chesnut White 44, Asian 8, Black 30, Hispanic 10
Hightower White 4, Asian 6, Black 12, Hispanic 76
Kingsley White 41, Asian 7, Black 21, Hispanic 25
Vanderlyn White 75, Asian 15, Black 4, Hispanic 2
Free Lunch Data
Austin 4%
Chesnut 31%
Hightower 97%
Kingsley 41%
Vanderlyn 2%
State of Georgia 53%
The above information was taken from the website education.com-2009 data. Information for Dunwoody elementary was not listed (probably because most sites listing schools would not consider it an elementary school). I have assumed that the same percentages will apply once the Dunwoody Elementary School kids are included with their home school.
As you can see Vanderlyn and Austin are majority white. No secret. Hightower is mostly Hispanic, no secret. Chesnut and Kingsley are the most diverse, no secret. Seeing how this data has been available for a long time, I wonder why we are just now hearing about 'access' to Vanderlyn and Austin? Where was the S.O.W. posse last month? Last year? Why were they not demanding more Hispanics and blacks and apartment units be zoned to their school? Surely a school board member could have arranged for more modular classrooms. In summary, the families feeding into Austin and Vanderlyn are NOT poor immigrants fresh out of Ellis island; they are educated, their students perform well in school, and they are not receiving free and/or reduced lunch.
Now that the school district has decided to redraw attendance lines all of a sudden people want more diverse schools.
The cost analysis is out! According to AJC at Get Schooled Blog, Centralized Plan Option 1 saves 150 million dollars the next 10 years. But get this, DECENTRALIZED OPTION 2 SAVES 160 MILLION DOLLARS OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS.
A million dollars more in savings to keep the magnets in place. Interesting they come out with this AFTER the Public Workshops on the plan.
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