These past weeks have brought to life the plight of the American public schools through several documentaries, Oprah, and NBC's Education Nation. I watched Oprah and her shows on improving the quality of education issues. NBC’s Education Nation can be viewed on the computer, as I have done after my son has gone to bed. I have heard and read differing views of the documentaries "Waiting For Superman", "The Cartel", and "The Lottery", although I have not seen them. As a former educator, I have seen all the movies about the woes of education, and have witnessed them first hand. I have agreed with some of what has been said by educators and "experts," while some of it has made my blood boil and left me talking back to the commenter or tv screen, even though no one can hear me.
I have so many questions going through my head right now, and I feel that we as a county, must act now, if we are going to get a quality person for superintendent to come aboard the crazy train that DCSS has been on and will continue to be on for as long as there are trials going on with former employees and about broken contracts. I fear that if we sit back and wait for the school board elections, that we may or may not get the change that many of us thirst for. We can no longer sit back, we must take action now. Cere's call to bring TP to Dresden and the district response has got me thinking that we can make even bigger things happen.
How can we make change happen, as our children cannot wait until a new superintendent is hired or for board members to put the education of our children first in each decision that they make are in place? How can we make DCSS a better place to educate our children, so that citizens like myself with young children want to send their children to DCSS in the future? How can we support our quality educators and keep them in our schools and classrooms? How can we be the REAL change that we want to see in DCSS? How can we let ALL of the children of DCSS know that we care about ALL of them and want them to receive a quality education? How can we be Superman for the children of DCSS?
The issues at Dresden were known and being acted upon prior to being brought to this blog.
ReplyDeleteI work in gov't facilities and operations. Having toilet paper, soap, paper towels, etc. fully stocked in a school, library, rec. center, park, etc. is not 'an issue". And it doesn't take "being worked on".
ReplyDeleteIt's Facilities 101. The most simple of the simple.
Honestly, if Sam Moss administrators and staff cannot keep every single DCSS restroom fully stocked, there should be immediate management changes.
There are many restrooms in the DCSS system that are in simply unacceptable condition.
Where is the accountability?? It's embarassing to the profession.
And if a school's administrators can't make sure the restrooms are fully stocked, they need to be held accountable, as does the Superintendent and the legions of Central Office whatever they do'ers.
Hygiene is a most basic need. These are school children my lord!
One of the foremost experts in the world on restroom hygiene, Dr. Tom Keating, lives in our own DeKalb County. Sadly, he's been rebuffed by the DCSS Central Office multiple times.
http://project-clean.com
http://project-clean.com/old/Restroom_Checklist.pdf
Folks, academics, curriculum, parental involvement, etc. are hard to tackle. Facilities management and operations isn't rocket science. I cannot fathom why it took a blog to get the Central Office and Sam Moss to do they most basic of duties and keep Dresden restrooms stocked.
It's really not just Dresden -- you'd be shocked if you surveyed your kids about thier willingness to use the facilities at their schools and the conditions they are in. Lakeside's are nortoriously bad and probably a breeding ground for many health issues so they seem to be used mostly for class avoidance rather than for what they're meant for. Further, teachers reward kids (this happens at HMS too) for not going to the bathroom at all -- they get x number of times to go per semester and if they don't use x up they get y bonus points added on to their grades (not all teachers but some of them.. including my son's APUS History class). It happens alot but not all the time... ask your kids.....
ReplyDeleteI love walking into a school where the floors shine. If the custodians are willing to polish the floors, then the restrooms will be clean and the trash cans will be empty. I think that a clean school building shows that we care about the students and teachers who work there. It is part of creating a positive learning environment for our children. What kind of a message does a poorly maintained, dirty school building send to the students who are enrolled there?
ReplyDeleteI would love having my Social Security-substitute pension back, OR having DCSS decide that it wants to have us join social security. Where have all the concerns about the budget gone? They just evaporated.
ReplyDeleteBut DCSS owes its employees the retirement funds they promised them. Even though it's only one of 4 counties in GA that offer the Board TSA, the other counties DO offer Social Security. It's a sign of the low regard in which the County holds its employees, that the Board's position on this has not been clarified. It's likely that they'll ostrich on this all year until May sometime, when it will be discovered that "there's no money."
fyi -- re: 9:14 -- you can see this very clearly if you compare HMS to LHS -- the buildings are very similar in age and design, although LHS has more students (extra year's worth and then some more transfers) and at the middle school there is some more "control" over the kids because of the "team" approach whereas in the HS everyone has individual schedules -- if you actually go into the buildings back to back, it is noteworthy and appalling to see the differences in condition -- mostly attributed to the difference in custodial staff (or attributed to an absolutely amazing staff at HMS) --but you have to do the comparison reminding yourself that the buildings are nearly identical in age and design.
ReplyDeleteI have health conditions as I currently have 1 kidney with a stent in it and I have to go to the bathroom frequently. When I used to teach at Lakeside High School I was a Interrelated Special Education Teacher and I taught self-contained and team-taught classes. Being able to get to a bathroom between the five minute break was an issue for me due to the number of bathrooms in the school, and the location of the bathrooms. I use student's bathrooms also as a teacher as I feel if they are exceptable for out students then they also are acceptable for my use as a teacher. I had trouble getting to the bathrooms at Lakeside in a timely manner. I cannot imagine the problems with use at the bathrooms at Lakeside now with all the extra students. Lakeside does not have the bathroom facilities to deal with this number of students. I hope the new addition have several new student bathrooms as these are needed at Lakeside.
ReplyDeleteMany of the older buildings throughout the county are similar and I am sure that the bathroom situation is bad for many students in crowded situations throughout the county. This is not acceptable.
I can also tell you that due to money shortages there are shortages of supplies in all the county school systems. This is a legislature issue and we must speak to our legislative representatives about this. We need the fish ponds and other projects cut and we need money going back into our Georgia Schools.
Thank goodness I am not an English Teacher as I can never remember which acceptable or exceptable you use. Help me here. I accept something so exceptable is past-tense or am I wrong.
ReplyDeleteI am asking for help on my English. If you can help me without being nasty that would be appreciated.
Mike Gets Results: The Anti-Bullying Bill
ReplyDeleteJaheem Herrera was a fifth grader at DeKalb County’s Dunaire Elementary School who committed suicide in 2009 after repeated incidents of school bullying. In the wake of this tragedy, I [Mike Jacobs] was approached by concerned DeKalb citizens, including some of my own constituents, to look into the adequacy of Georgia’s anti-bullying statute. I was dismayed at what I found and became determined to fix it. The law that was on the books in 2009 did not even cover the Jaheem Herrera situation because it applied only to grades 6 through 12. The old law included a virtually useless definition of “bullying.” Overall, Georgia’s anti-bullying statute was bare bones and inadequate. 43 states have anti-bullying laws. Until this year, Georgia’s law was the oldest of the 43. A lot of states had come up with better ways to address the issue after Georgia initially enacted its statute. http://repjacobs.com/2010/09/07/mike-gets-results-the-anti-bullying-bill/
Based on what is here -- we, as non-lawyers/judges look at Dunaire and the schools and say 'of course he was bullied and bullying was going on...' -- the Judge can do her investigation and find, 'no bullying' because she can apply the legal definition of "bullying" applicable at the time of incident and determine that there was no bullying because the rules didn't apply to the 5th grader -- of course when you listen to Boortz and the news, DCSS could have been pursued on "charges" of bullying anyway because the "jury" could have found the definition inadequate but, alas, they paid quarter million to make it go away on a legal definition at the expense of the family......Then one wonders if a portion of what was paid to the Judge for her oral report on, essentially a legal question, was subject to the tithe, and was just really a way to get $35k to NB? What's really right for the kids?
In answer to the initial post -- I think one great way to start is to take A. Berry and her dept. and disperse them into classrooms with kids, who are grouped by ability (perhaps not politically correct but practical) and lets start teaching them (drilling them) on basics -- reading, writing and math basics so that they can be at grade level in some reasonable time frame if they are not there already (use these teachers at those schools where this would be most beneficial) and get the kids into groupings where they can be helped in this fashion with personal, near one on one attention on a regular basis.
ReplyDelete@ Ella,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your being willing to ask. The too sound the same but have nothing in common with respect to meaning (think "deer" and "dear.") So it's not a matter of verb tense.
Accept an apology, a gift, or the fact that the school system has issues. (means to take in)
Except means "other than," as in everyone except John was invited.
When in doubt, use Dictionary. com!
Here's a way to "do right" by our students and taxpayers: Completely eliminate the Office of Student Improvement. It has shown no return on investment. It is a massive waste of taxpayer dollars.
ReplyDeleteGet the best of that satff back in the classroom. And layoff the others. Every single resource in the system needs to be focused back on the classroom, and then give the leftover back to the taxpayer.
There is so much waste and inefficiency at DCSS MIS, school police, Sam Moss, School Improvement, and of course at the Central Office. Focus back on the classroom, and also give taxpayers a break!
Ella, exceptable isn't a word. The comparison you're thinking about is accept versus except, but exceptable isn't a word.
ReplyDeleteHow can we show that the Office of School Improvement is indeed a waste of money? I am not disagreeing with you, in fact I agree 100%, but feel that we need to show data to the board to prove our point.
ReplyDeleteIs there a way to show how the coaches have cost us money, but have given us little results for the money that we are spending?
If the rest of the coaches are like Dresden's then they don't really do much. Our Title 1 coach is now taking minutes at our grade level meetings. I guess this is a way of justifying her paycheck. I would rather have gotten money from Title 1 funds for things needed in the classroom. Instead these funds are being used to pay someone who will not help teachers or work with children.
ReplyDeleteSomeone certainly seems to have a vendetta going against Dresden.
ReplyDeleteODE is that you?
"...but feel that we need to show data to the board to prove our point"
ReplyDeleteFor the love of Moses and all the prophets, let us stop using the word "DATA".
We don't need "data", we just need "common sense"!
Don't fall into DCSS's trap of using data to justify anything it wants to keep and anything it wants to do away with!
Your common sense is enough!
Common sense isn't enough. If we want to make a change we need to show the board that this is a waste.
ReplyDeleteData is not bad and using data to drive decisions isn't bad. It's gotten a bad rap because data or the right kind of data isn't used in DCSS and time isn't given for teachers to use and analyze any data good or bad.
Having taught were data is the driving force in decisions made in my classroom, I would prefer a teacher who uses good data and knows my child and gives them what they need, instead of a teacher who flies by the seat of her pants and does what she thinks or feels the children need, as all children are different.
Decisions aren't made in companies without looking at the information and getting a big picture of the consequences-a data driven decision. This doesn't happen in DCSS, as we see time and time again, decisions being made without looking or thinking about the future consequences.
Anon 2:14,
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with you about common sense, we need to keep our audience in mind - the current and/or future BoE. Data is the way to go.
Has anyone on this blog had an exchange with a Board member, presented a case based on common sense (no matter how absolutely true the case was and how completely clear their point was), and convinced that Board member of anything?
Unfortunately, you gotta prove your point with data, figures and statistics, or they won't even give you their attention.
Shame the BOE into action. For those schools short on supplies, organize a "Bring TP". Each student shows up with a few rolls of TP. Get one of the TV stations to show it. Then you will get action from the BOE as they ply CYA with their own TP.
ReplyDelete" I would prefer a teacher who uses good data and knows my child and gives them what they need, instead of a teacher who flies by the seat of her pants and does what she thinks or feels the children need, as all children are different."
ReplyDeleteSo you think a teacher IS REALLY going spend the 1 or 2 hours to analyze which questions out of 50 questions test each her 150 child got wrong before deciding that if the class average is 50% she'd better re-teach the chapter? Can't she eyeball which types of question most of the kids did not get?
Do you really think they need to the mumbo-jumbo with excel sheets and statistical data to figure out that she needs to reteach some concept?
How did we educate children before this "datarhea" became epidemic?
If the teacher must analyze data, then the County Office must be right to have all these data crunchers and graph pasted? But we know this is actually bull.
ReplyDeleteCome on, folks, somethings are not data worthy.
I feel like I am watching a vampire movie with an audience who actually believes the storyline. Guys, data at the quiz level and individual level is not telling us about teaching and learning: it's telling us which student took it seriously and which student studied. Teachers don't need hours of analysis to figure that out! Quit burdening them!!
When I taught in Chicago, with 38-40 children in my classroom, 3 1/2 hour preps a week, and a 20 minute lunch each day, I had to use data to drive my instruction. I could tell you the strengths and weaknesses of each child. My students were in fluid groups and their work depended on their needs and strengths. I was able to push my students to their personal best. Yes, grading homework was time consuming, because few students had the same. My students IOWA test scores (what we used to measure student growth, instead of CRCT) went up at least a year (for special ed children) and 1 1/2 - 2 for the other children in my class.
ReplyDeleteSuccessful charter schools like KIPP, Amistad Academy, and others use data to drive the instruction that the children receive. Each child knows his or her strengths and area of need and where he needs to go and what he needs to do to make the grade. These schools are succeeding and bringing students with low skills at or above grade level.
Our schools are failing our children, as more and more are not making AYP. Good test and quiz data can give a teacher a wealth of information, however, that is not what is currently used in DCSS. Not all data is good, but when a teacher uses good data to drive the instruction in their classroom, it is a work of art, a thing of beauty, and a meaningful day to all involved.
Using data doesn't have to mean spread sheets. It can be a simple list of who understands and who doesn't. I was taught to teach by using data when I was in graduate school earning my teaching certificate and masters degree in the mid-90's. Once you get used to using data and seeing how far you are able to take your students, you don't want to go back.
The data I used was helpful and meaningful and helped me to reach all of the children in my class. Using data, also helped me to having meaningful conversations with parents and administrators about the strengths and weaknesses of the children in my class.
I look at it this way, teachers want to be called professionals, like doctors and lawyers. I don't want a doctor diagnosing me with his gut feeling of what I may or may not have. Or a lawyer not using the law but common sense or his gut feelings to fight my case in court. Why would you want a teacher to use their gut feelings, common sense or whatever you want to call it to educate your child?
I believe that part of the problem with the bad wrap that teachers get are attitudes that teachers express of not having time to do x, y, and z, even though it would be beneficial to the children and the instruction that they are provided. Would you go to a doctor that didn't have time to read your lab results? If teachers want to be treated and paid like professionals, then they need to act like professionals and use hard data (not the meaningless benchmarks that DCSS wants teachers to use now) to drive the instruction for each child in their room.
As a former teacher, and now a stay at home mom, if you don't want to do the job of teaching our children in the most effective way, get out of the profession, as the complaining teachers give all teachers a reputation of not wanting to go above and beyond.
I want the children of this county to be educated so that they can compete in this world, and by not using data, especially in elementary school, to drive instruction, we are offering our students a less than stellar education.
"Using data doesn't have to mean spread sheets. It can be a simple list of who understands and who doesn't. "
ReplyDeleteMy grandfather kept list of who did and who did not understand some element. He was a pretty good teacher. Most teachers have been keeping lists and grade books that informs them on what to teach or reteach to whom.
A lab result for a test of thyroid function is not what we are talking about. And you know it!
I was not speaking to that. I was speaking to a system that ask a teacher to record every student answer to some spreadsheet. Or to put in a useless 16 hours at home on top of the in-school-after-class hours just "hunt" for data that jumps at you!!
@ 4:32
ReplyDeleteI am glad you are a stay-at-home mother.
Please don't begrudge those of us who are mothers, fathers, and still teachers the hours we can spend with our own biological children after 6PM and before 6AM. Don't rob us of these times with red herrings and pseudo-data.
Like you said, we can get our data by grading the work!!
Looking at a test and analyzing the results can be beneficial to a teacher. It will show them if a number of the children answered a question incorrectly, which should tell them what they did not teach effectively or what the children as a whole did not understand. That being said, it's only beneficial if the test is well written and on the topic of what has been taught.
ReplyDeleteUsing and analyzing good data is very beneficial, if done correctly, and shouldn't take hours upon hours to do. Teachers should be discussing their data with each other and comparing it.
I believe that many teachers do not want to change, as they feel that what they are doing is fine. It isn't fine, as if it were, more of our schools would be making AYP and our students would not be falling further and further behind as a nation.
Folks - I was talking about the Board members - the only way I can see to make a case with them (about whatever) is to show data - before / after, with /without, paper required for the copier (and why) / paper supplied, number of users of copier and average length of time needed (nobody's going to stand at the copier for fun) which may add up to more than 24 hours per day, number of students / number of rolls of toilet paper needed / number supplied, average amount of personal money spent for classroom needs per teacher...
ReplyDeleteYou get my drift. I really don't think theses Board members believe anything but figures on a piece of paper. If that. Depends on which a "bi-polar, hysterical" constituent is presenting it I guess.
C? Y!!!
@ Anonymous 4:32
ReplyDeletePart 1 of Post:
"I want the children of this county to be educated so that they can compete in this world, and by not using data, especially in elementary school, to drive instruction, we are offering our students a less than stellar education. "
What an excellent post.
The absence of student data capture and analysis is one of the worst problems in DCSS.
The $11,000,000 eSis and SchoolNet system that MIS advised the BOE to purchase in 2007 has not provided that data to teachers.
The DCSS Benchmark testing method makes the benchmark testing not only useless but distracting:
1. Every six weeks students to "bubble in" answers to questions that do not correspond to the curriculum taught and tested
2. Teachers need to "scan" in the answer sheets when scanning software often doesn't work correctly
3. Data analysis is not delivered to teachers on a timely basis
To use data to improve academic achievement:
1. The benchmark tests should correlate to the curriculum taught and tested.
2. The students should be able to go into a computer lab and take the test in 15 to 20 minutes.
3. The data should be analyzed and accessible to the teacher at home or at school by the next day.
4. Software should allow the teacher to sort the data so that he/she knows whether a concept needs reteaching to the entire class or if flexible grouping or individual attention for specific students is warranted.
MIS has had since 2007 when these systems were purchased to get this working for students and teachers. The burden rests squarely on their shoulders. Until parents demand the DCSS technology works the way it is supposed to work, teachers can do little about this. This is a support services job. Teachers cannot "fix" these systems.
@ Anonymous 4:32
ReplyDeletePart 2 of Post:
I like your doctor and patient analogy. Currently, the situation is much like a doctor having inaccurate information too late to help many patients, and you and your doctor having no absolutely no recourse.
Please write Ms. Tyson and the DCSS BOE. Regarding BOE notes May 18, 2007, MIS promised that this program would do all that you have seen first hand is necesssary:
"Ms. Ramona Tyson, Associate Superintendent of Management Information Systems (MIS), stated that MIS has been working in partnership and collaboration with the Division of Instruction for over a year researching the education marketplace for a web-based instructional management solution that will allow the use of data to accelerate gains in district decision-making, teacher proficiency, individualized instruction, student achievement, and school reform. ...
SchoolNet team...presented a demonstration of how SchoolNet’s school performance management solutions empower district administrators, principals, and teachers to make real-time, data-based decisions, deploy programs and other curricular resources effectively, communicate with parents, and fulfill the promise of true individualized instruction based on students’ specific needs and learning levels....
Ms. Tyson explained that the SchoolNet product .... will feed all the data already available in the system into one program daily, so one only has to “point and click” to obtain the data analysis reports. It will draw from all the data that is currently being entered into the student data warehouse..."
Seems like this should be a slam-dunk in this day and age. Why do we not have the necessary technology to collect this data that we so need? Wouldn't it be logical if students could take a test on a computer that would give them an instantaneous grade (or maybe even 'help' them arrive at the correct answer, but keep track of the students who required 'hints')? Wouldn't it be great if that online software could somehow keep track of a student's benchmarks and chart the results? Perhaps even issuing a 'report' on what this student needs to work on according to the tests and share that info with the parents?
ReplyDeleteThis stuff already exists! We don't have to invent it! This kind of e learning is everywhere in the corporate world - and as far as in education - we need not look any further that the college board. If you sign up for an account there and take the daily SAT question or occasionally quizzes - this program will track your results and issue your reports. Another one is MyLearningLab - used in almost all of our community colleges.
What is the hold-up? We've spent millions upon millions, yet I'm hearing that we don't have this kind of high-tech, instantaneous data available? Something is very wrong if that's true.
Since most instructional coaches cannot find anything to do within schools, let them use their time to analyze data for all of the students in the school and then make groups according to the data. Maybe this will help the teachers along with giving these sorry coaches something to do while they sit all day and chat with their sorors or administrators. Has anyone seen one instructional coach teach or model a differentiated lesson this year or last year? Let's vote!
ReplyDelete@"If teachers want to be treated like professionals, they should act like professionals..."
ReplyDeleteAm not a teacher, but I can honestly say that perhaps this would be easier if they were PAID like professionals. I find it disgusting that teachers are not receiving retirement benefits - and that they county has not at least reversed and begun to contribute to retirement.....I'm not sure how this is legal. As a taxpayer, I'm just waiting for 10-12 teachers to band together to sue the county.
Honestly, there are bad teachers, but the ones that I have been talking to are not bad, are quite professional, and are BURNT OUT. Give them the resources and support that they need. Most are willing to change, but they cannot do it alone...which is what the county is currently expecting.
In answer to the poster who wanted to know who has it in for Dresden...
ReplyDeleteNo one does! Some teachers at Dresden just want the school to function to its highest ability. And having an instructional coach (former Reading First) who does not directly help students and who gets others to present at staff meetings is not good for the students at Dresden. The teachers at Dresden care enormously about their kids - but also care enormously about the DCSS as a whole. We want EVERYONE to focus on learning and children. We want EVERYONE to do their best job every day - whether that job involves cleaning so our children are in a sanitary environment, analyzing data so that we understand our children's needs, planning interesting and rigorous lessons, leading a school with honesty, fairness, and dignity, being a coach who genuinely helps the students and teachers, parenting our students so that they are respectful and hard-working, or a BOE member who works cooperatively to improve our district. Complaining about Dresden teachers is not helping our district. The ones who are speaking out are speaking out because they want genuine improvement. And they are speaking out anonymously because they fear retaliation from the principal if they speak out.
As far as using data is concerned - it is enormously helpful - and most teachers DO use it. What is not helpful is having to spreadsheet data when DCSS already has the technology to do so automatically.
7:05 p.m. I believe DCSS teachers do participate in the state retirement program. However, the county is currently not making the "extra" retirement contribution that they were doing instead of teachers paying into Social Security. I don't know all the specifics but it is very complicated and relates to a decision some years ago for DCSS employees to not participate in social security.
ReplyDeleteAll DCSS teachers are eligible and will receive retirement benefits.
I would challenge everyone with this truth:
ReplyDeleteWe value public education as an institution. But, we have set it up for failure.
We fund public education through the force of law.
Individuals can leave the public system anytime they want, but their tax dollars do not.
So, the institution need not fear a loss of income for poor or inferior performance.
Public education will only become better if it competes for its funding and poor or substandard behavior, processes and people are weeded out.
As a teacher friend of mine once said when I asked how her teaching job ws going,"It's hard to get fired."
Teachers not paid like professionals? Really? Have you looked at the salaries of many teachers? $70,000, $80,000 ... Go review the salaries on open.georgia.gov.
ReplyDeleteTeachers are well paid - especially for what others are making in this economy.
If these are really teachers that are whining about pay and paper (which I doubt), please quit. You're not helping yourselves here.
As far as DCSS teachers getting retirement goes...yes, we get state retirement, like all teachers across the state. However, DCSS agreed many years ago to offer another retirement program instead of Social Security. Other teachers in other systems are getting state retirement as well as Social Security. DCSS teachers are not. We (at least for the last 2 years) are only getting state retirement. I believe that the BOE is, at the very least, unethical in its withholding our our additional retirement. Some teachers are investigating the possibility of a lawsuit against the BOE and DCSS in order to force the BOE/DCSS to either pay one or the other. A promise to "pay in the future when funds allow" is not good enough.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous 4:32
ReplyDeleteThis blog has been acting pretty wonky so I'll try again:
Part 1 of Post:
@ Anonymous 4:32
"I want the children of this county to be educated so that they can compete in this world, and by not using data, especially in elementary school, to drive instruction, we are offering our students a less than stellar education. "
What an excellent post.
The absence of student data capture and analysis is one of the worst problems in DCSS.
The $11,000,000 eSis and SchoolNet system that MIS advised the BOE to purchase in 2007 has not provided that data to teachers.
The DCSS Benchmark testing method makes the benchmark testing not only useless but distracting:
1. Every six weeks students to "bubble in" answers to questions that do not correspond to the curriculum taught and tested
2. Teachers need to "scan" in the answer sheets when scanning software often doesn't work correctly
3. Data analysis is not delivered to teachers on a timely basis
To use data to improve academic achievement:
1. The benchmark tests should correlate to the curriculum taught and tested.
2. The students should be able to go into a computer lab and take the test in 15 to 20 minutes.
3. The data should be analyzed and accessible to the teacher at home or at school by the next day.
4. Software should allow the teacher to sort the data so that he/she knows whether a concept needs reteaching to the entire class or if flexible grouping or individual attention for specific students is warranted.
MIS has had since 2007 when these systems were purchased to get this working for students and teachers. The burden rests squarely on their shoulders. Until parents demand the DCSS technology works the way it is supposed to work, teachers can do little about this. This is a support services job. Teachers cannot "fix" these systems.
@ Anonymous 4:32
ReplyDeletePart 2 of Post:
I like your doctor and patient analogy. Currently, the situation is much like a doctor having inaccurate information too late to help many patients, and you and your doctor having no absolutely no recourse.
Please write Ms. Tyson and the DCSS BOE. Regarding BOE notes May 18, 2007, MIS promised that this program would do all that you have seen first hand is necesssary:
"Ms. Ramona Tyson, Associate Superintendent of Management Information Systems (MIS), stated that MIS has been working in partnership and collaboration with the Division of Instruction for over a year researching the education marketplace for a web-based instructional management solution that will allow the use of data to accelerate gains in district decision-making, teacher proficiency, individualized instruction, student achievement, and school reform. ...
SchoolNet team...presented a demonstration of how SchoolNet’s school performance management solutions empower district administrators, principals, and teachers to make real-time, data-based decisions, deploy programs and other curricular resources effectively, communicate with parents, and fulfill the promise of true individualized instruction based on students’ specific needs and learning levels....
Ms. Tyson explained that the SchoolNet product .... will feed all the data already available in the system into one program daily, so one only has to “point and click” to obtain the data analysis reports. It will draw from all the data that is currently being entered into the student data warehouse..."
@ Anonymous 4:32
ReplyDelete"I want the children of this county to be educated so that they can compete in this world, and by not using data, especially in elementary school, to drive instruction, we are offering our students a less than stellar education. "
What an excellent post.
The absence of student data capture and analysis is one of the worst problems in DCSS.
The $11,000,000 eSis and SchoolNet system that MIS advised the BOE to purchase in 2007 has not provided that data to teachers.
The DCSS Benchmark testing method makes the benchmark testing not only useless but distracting:
1. Every six weeks students to "bubble in" answers to questions that do not correspond to the curriculum taught and tested
2. Teachers need to "scan" in the answer sheets when scanning software often doesn't work correctly
3. Data analysis is not delivered to teachers on a timely basis
To use data to improve academic achievement:
1. The benchmark tests should correlate to the curriculum taught and tested.
2. The students should be able to go into a computer lab and take the test in 15 to 20 minutes.
3. The data should be analyzed and accessible to the teacher at home or at school by the next day.
4. Software should allow the teacher to sort the data so that he/she knows whether a concept needs reteaching to the entire class or if flexible grouping or individual attention for specific students is warranted.
MIS has had since 2007 when these systems were purchased to get this working for students and teachers. The burden rests squarely on their shoulders. Until parents demand the DCSS technology works the way it is supposed to work, teachers can do little about this. This is a support services job. Teachers cannot "fix" these systems.
@9:13
ReplyDeleteMost teachers are not making $70,000 - $80,000. We have not received a 2% cost of living in 3 years or a step increase. This year however we have received a pay cut, 5 furlough days. Most teachers spent a lot of their own money for materials in order to supplement our lessons. Do other professions have to spent their own money for toner or paper or whatever for their jobs? I think not! Get the facts before you post.
"the county is currently not making the "extra" retirement contribution that they were doing instead of teachers paying into Social Security. "
ReplyDeleteMany years ago, DCSS opted out of the Social Security System. At that time, the school board agreed to invest the money they would have paid in Social Security taxes (the Social Security taxes that other employers are required to pay) into an individual retirement account for every school system employee.
Last school year DCSS employees did not receive any contributions to their accounts. The same goes for this school year. When DCSS employees retire, they will not receive Social Security payments. Federal law is written in such a way that even if the employee paid enough quarters into the Social Security system to qualify to receive Social Security benefits, that employee, at best, will receive a significantly reduced social security pension.
@ 9:13
ReplyDeleteHere is the average for teachers in DCSS. Of course, the pay has been cut and furlough days have taken their toll. Below were the salary averages for all certificated personnel (personnel who hold teaching certificates in DCSS -teachers and non-teachers):
Administrators (534) : $91,296.63
Support Personnel (939): $65,653.87
Teachers (numbers have shrunk from 6886 to around 6500): $54,586.86
source: http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=102&CountyId=644&T=1&FY=2009
@ Anonymous 4:32
ReplyDeleteThe absence of student data capture and analysis is one of the worst problems in DCSS.
The $11,000,000 eSis and SchoolNet system that MIS advised the BOE to purchase in 2007 has not provided that data to teachers.
The DCSS Benchmark testing method makes the benchmark testing not only useless but distracting:
1. Every six weeks students to "bubble in" answers to questions that do not correspond to the curriculum taught and tested
2. Teachers need to "scan" in the answer sheets when scanning software often doesn't work correctly
3. Data analysis is not delivered to teachers on a timely basis
To use data to improve academic achievement:
1. The benchmark tests should correlate to the curriculum taught and tested.
2. The students should be able to go into a computer lab and take the test in 15 to 20 minutes.
3. The data should be analyzed and accessible to the teacher at home or at school by the next day.
4. Software should allow the teacher to sort the data so that he/she knows whether a concept needs reteaching to the entire class or if flexible grouping or individual attention for specific students is warranted.
MIS has had since 2007 when these systems were purchased to get this working for students and teachers. The burden rests squarely on their shoulders. Until parents demand the DCSS technology works the way it is supposed to work, teachers can do little about this. This is a support services job. Teachers cannot "fix" these systems.
The letter to the editor reinforces a sense I have nearly every time I read this blog: that the posters to the DeKalb School Watch are brighter, more thoughtful, more articulate and more informed than anyone on the “Cabinet” of DeKalb Schools. (In Cere’s case, it is the God’s honest truth!) Here’s the problem: as parents, we simply want our children shepherded through school without getting ground up by the system. We want irrational, unprepared and unreasonable teachers fired. We want teachers who are really GOOD at teaching – who are prepared, know their content, are fair and actually LIKE what they do – to be rewarded. We want our children to be safe – from inept educators, poorly drawn curricula and unhygienic bathrooms. And we want our children to emerge from their k-12 education prepared for college or meaningful work.
ReplyDeleteDCSS, it seems, does not share these goals. The overriding interest of those in charge is climbing the ladder (shaky as it is), amassing power and getting to the point where you don’t have much to do with children. When parents bring issues to light, we are deployed to meaningless committees to write reports that will never be seriously reviewed or implemented. When we complain of a lack of textbooks, we are told the teacher is teaching “outside of the box.” Yes, but you can’t have a point of departure… until you know where to begin. When we appeal to the principal that the bathrooms are better in prison, he says it’s not his fault and blames the guy above him on the org chart. Or a lack of supplies. Or a hiring freeze so there’s no one to do the cleaning. (When my children hit middle school, so began the years of racing in the door at the end of the day - not because they were glad to see me, but because they had avoided the school restrooms all day.) And what does that communicate? “Here, children. Here’s what we think of you.” It also communicates that the administrators do not for a moment care what their students are enduring.
Most devastating is the culture of dishonesty that permeates the system. If an administrator can lie to you and get away with it, he will. And that, I believe has brought the system to near collapse. But sadly, the crazy-making administrators, unprepared and non-computer literate teachers and toilet-paperless bathrooms are nothing new. My children are now in high school and college: I have been dealing with these very issues since they began Kindergarten. Where we are today is but the logical conclusion of where things were when I was first acquainted with the system. While we still have some teachers who are true treasures and have given their life’s blood to our children and DeKalb schools, we have essentially missed a generation of new teachers who knew of the chaos - the lack of integrity at the top - and applied elsewhere. That left the current crop of administrators to be promoted to run the ship. And they ran it right into the ground.
To do right by our children, we need wholesale resignations or firings and a new team at the top that cares more about our enriching our children than enriching themselves.
@10:26 pm
ReplyDeleteMany teachers agree with you. Many of us are leaving as soon as the job market opens up unless the BOE hires a new superintendent and gives him/her the power to fire at will AND promises to keep him/her for at least several years. It will take a few years to clean up DCSS. It's a Herculean task.
@ Anonymous 4:32
ReplyDeleteThe absence of student data capture and analysis is one of the worst problems in DCSS.
The $11,000,000 eSis and SchoolNet system that MIS advised the BOE to purchase in 2007 has not provided that data to teachers.
The DCSS Benchmark testing method was not only useless, but distracting as well. I believe it has been suspended due to these problems.
1. Every six weeks students were required to "bubble in" answers to questions that do not correspond to the curriculum taught and tested.
2. Teachers needed to manually "scan" in hundreds of student answer sheets. In addition scanning software did not always work properly.
3. Data analysis was not delivered to teachers on a timely basis.
To use data to improve academic achievement DCSS needs to:
1. Have benchmark tests that correlate to the curriculum taught and tested.
2. Be able to have students go into a computer lab and take the benchmark test.
3. Produce data that is analyzed and accessible to the teacher at home or at school by the next day.
4. Have software that allows the teacher to sort the data so that he/she knows whether a concept needs reteaching to the entire classs or if flexible groupin or individual attention for specific students is warranted.
MIS has had since 2007 when these systems were purchased to get this working for students and teachers. Until parents demand the DCSS technology works the way it's supposed to work, teachers can do little about this. This is a support services job. Teachers cannot "fix" these systems.
@ Cerebration
ReplyDelete"What is the hold-up? We've spent millions upon millions, yet I'm hearing that we don't have this kind of high-tech, instantaneous data available? Something is very wrong if that's true. "
Of course the technology is there. Go to other systems and then go into DCSS schools and classrooms and compare the access to technology students have.
In almost every high school, the labs are dedicated to the Business Ed teacher who teaches all day in the lab. At most 1 or 2 computer labs are available for ALL of the content area teachers (math, English, science and social studies). With a 100+ (or more) teachers vying for 1 or 2 labs, a content area teacher is lucky to have one or two hours a month in a computer lab. Most Content area classrooms have only 2 computers for students so how would you suggest 30+ students take a benchmark test with that level of technology available?
@ Cerebration
ReplyDeleteWhat's sad is that the entire responsibility for making AYP rests on the shoulders of the Content area teachers in middle and high and the grade level teachers in elementary, yet they are not given the resources to obtain the data they need to help students.
DCSS spends tens of millions on technology and technology personnel. So why don't we have the necessary technology for students? We spent tens of millions (almost all SPLOST II technology dollars) for our great big data pipe (the one Ms. Tyson is so proud of) and had a pittance left over to provide computers for students - quite ironic. In addition, now we are spending tens of millions to pay for Network personnel (even the schoolhouse CTSSs are only required to be network certified) - so we're tending a network with little hanging off of it - more irony.
Now you see why DCSS needed teacher, student and parent input for the latest technology plan (not one student, teacher or parent was involved in the plan.) Is it any wonder we are in such terrible shape?
Wow, Anon 10:26 PM. Very well-stated. All very true. And unless and until we do some very serious house-cleaning and re-focus on educating children as Job 1, then we will continue on this path to mediocrity or worse.
ReplyDeleteAverage salary for a teacher? Median salary for a teacher.
ReplyDeleteAre there teachers that make 60K plus? Yes. A lot of them? No.
Starting salary for a teacher is $40,088.40. No teacher with a bachelor's degree ever makes it to 60K.
No teacher with 10 years of experience, no matter the degree, makes 60K.
Now, when I say this, I'm looking at the salary schedule - base pay. Doesn't include increases for dept. chairs, coaching, or extra duties. Also, I'm not sure if it includes reductions for furloughs.
Are these professional level salaries? After 10 years in the classroom, they start to be. But long before that, by 5 years, more than half leave the profession. Why? Low pay, poor working conditions. Some of those are good people, excellent teachers, who needed more support....and more pay. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801344.html
Starting salary for a teacher is $40,088.40. No teacher with a bachelor's degree ever makes it to 60K.
ReplyDeleteDo you know how few people make $40,000 right out of college, especially now? Very, very few. And people that sniff $60,000 salary in year, in this economy? Count yourselves lucky.
@ Anonymous 7:25
ReplyDelete"Do you know how few people make $40,000 right out of college, especially now?"
Most of the young people I know that recently graduated do not start at $40,000 although a few do. Even fewer start at $60,000 and up - mainly computer science majors, chemists, engineers, doctors, etc.
But I know quite a few who are making near $100,000 within 5 years of college even in this economy. They are in business, and they are making money for their employer so they are more valuable than in the boom times. They are increasing the bottom line for their employer which is why they are rewarded for their efforts with a nice salary and bonuses. They're smart, and they work a lot of hours. They are effective. Their employer values them.
I have been teaching for seven years, five of which have been in DeKalb. This year my salary is $39,800 due to the pay decrease and furlough days!! In addition, DCSS is not making contributions they promised into my retirement account to offset the Social Security I will NOT be receiving. It is, obviously, difficult to save any significant money for retirement with this type of salary as I also have a family and a mortgage. I love working with the students and have earned several awards for my teaching. Why, oh, why should I remain working in DeKalb County when I can go to a neighboring county and have an immediate $5,000 increase in my salary? Why, oh, why should I pursue a higher degree? So I can earn $43,000 from DeKalb County instead of $39,800? It is becoming increasingly difficult to justify remaining in DeKalb County.
ReplyDeleteAgain, teachers don't receive Social Security because you are NOT paying into the system. Today most state, federal, local and all private industry employees have to pay Social Security taxes, plus their employer pays into the system. It isn't free and it is a big chunk out of my small government salary.
ReplyDeleteI think DCSS made a very poor decision years ago to not participate in Social Security. Like many large employers, they are now facing the reality that a defined benefit retirement program is bankrupting the school system.
Do any of the other local school systems participate in Social Security or is this just a "perk" that Dekalb teachers had? I know Atlanta Public does not, I don't think that Fulton does...anyone know about Forsyth and Gwinnett?
ReplyDeleteDoesn't someone need to look into this before we continue to commit to this payment? If the other systems are not, would we not be better to put the money into salary?
What payment? DCSS isn't paying anything towards retirement. It is currently all funded by the teachers and other employees. Not paying into a retirement account and not paying Social Security taxes - sounds like a financial windfall for DCSS.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete"As far as DCSS teachers getting retirement goes...yes, we get state retirement, like all teachers across the state. However, DCSS agreed many years ago to offer another retirement program instead of Social Security. Other teachers in other systems are getting state retirement as well as Social Security. DCSS teachers are not. We (at least for the last 2 years) are only getting state retirement. I believe that the BOE is, at the very least, unethical in its withholding our our additional retirement. Some teachers are investigating the possibility of a lawsuit against the BOE and DCSS in order to force the BOE/DCSS to either pay one or the other. A promise to "pay in the future when funds allow" is not good enough."
October 2, 2010 10:02 PM
Well said!
The first thing that we need to do in order to "do right by our children," is to figure out what we collectively want for our children. We need to talk of Dekalb County, rather than areas of Dekalb County. We need to expect excellence for all children rather than just our own. We need leadership with a vision and a long-term outlook. There are many things that need to be fixed sooner than yesterday, but in all honesty, the fixes will take years. Just what is our vision for our school system?
ReplyDeleteI don't want this string to get hijacked by a discussion on retirement benefits but teachers need to be aware that many school systems pay into Social Security. I think Cobb and City of Decatur do this.
ReplyDeleteI think Fulton County teachers hired after 1988 may participate in Social Security but not entirely sure of that. DCSS teachers voted in the late 70s (?) to not contribute to Social security and instead the system set up a very generous supplemental retirement program whereby the school system would contribute to a Tax Shelter Annuity fund. It is this TSA program that is in jeoparday due to the economy.
There is a lot of misinformation about DCSS teacher's retirement. Teachers should insist that ODE and the BOE explain what is going on.
Ask Paul Womack. I think he was on the board back when this decision was made -- or soon after.
ReplyDeleteI do think that the underlying point here is that our system is not competing for the best teachers. We can't hire and/or keep the best, when systems to our left and right are willing to pay them more, provide all of the necessary tools to work with along with a secure supplemental retirement, be it Social Security or something else in addition to state teacher's pension (which teachers make contributions to themselves, similar to a 401k, but it's an annuity - with guaranteed monthly benefits - I believe.)
Anecdotally, I personally know many teachers who have left DCSS for Gwinnett, Fulton or elsewhere. I don't know very many who have chosen to leave one of those and come to DeKalb. That is the complete opposite of how it used to be.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of good and bad teacher, I offer this quote from an advocate:
ReplyDelete"....I think that the Waltons, Bill Gates, the Broad Foundation, and others mistakenly think that if they can run businesses, then they can apply the same principles to public education. They are still thinking that school children are comparable to Twinkies floating down a conveyor belt. If Teacher A can fill up 20 Twinkie boxes in one hour, and Teacher B can only fill up 15 Twinkie boxes in an hour, then Teacher A should get paid more than Teacher B — regardless if Teacher B’s Twinkies were coming down the conveyor belt all beat up and smashed. Some were even jumping off the conveyor belt!"
10:36--I love your metaphor!
ReplyDeleteI agree that we don't want to focus on teacher retirement--maybe a separate discussion can be started on that.
But I can't help pointing out that under Social Security, DCSS would be paying 6.2% of my salary, rather than the 5% they WERE paying into my retirement. It passed because it was a "win" for both sides.
Gotta go make some filling--Twinkies coming down the belt tomorrow!
(At the risk of being another hijacker)--
ReplyDelete"It is this TSA program that is in jeoparday due to the economy."
It is not in jeopardy--it's GONE. I am paid less than those who work a few miles away and will retire with less. I will have no choice but to look at other counties next year.
And yes, if I may be so bold as to say so, my absence will be detrimental to the students of DCSS.
"DCSS isn't paying anything towards retirement.'
ReplyDeleteThat's not true. DCSS (taxpayers) pays 10.28% of the retirement cost with the employees paying 5.53%.
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/administration/humanresources/benefits.html
This is why it's critical to get the admin and support numbers (8,300 support and 1239 Central Office non-teaching employees versus 6,500 teachers) under control.
Even if we don't save on salaries with outsourcing, we cut benefits - 10.28% in retirement contribution alone. Considering the fact that 90% of our total revenues go to personnel costs, retirement contribution equals to hundreds of millions. ($1,000,000,000 x 90% = $900,000,000 in personnel cost. 10.28% of this is in retirement contributions from DCSS. $900,000,000 x 10.28% = $92,520,000 a year in retirement contributions.)
None of this is brain surgery. It's easy to see what impact each department has in benefit cost to DCSS. It's easy to see that the highly paid admin and support personnel are costing tens of millions in additional retirement benefit cost.
Rightsizing non-teaching employees through attrition, personnel cuts, and outsourcing is critical to freeing up that money for hiring personnel who directly instruct students. Direct instruction is the core business of all school systems. We have lost our focus in DeKalb. We are paying for it in the form of taxes and students are paying for it in the form of decreased achievement.
One of the first things Lewis did when he first became superintendent (with the BOE's endorsement) was cut the TSA contribution to teachers until they had been with DeKalb for 4 years.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, Lewis began to grow his vast army of admin and support personnel. In other words, he re-employed the savings to add in the admin and support side. Lewis used that same strategy to cut the budget in 2009 by suspending the TSA (additionally he cut hundreds of teacher positions). Ms. Tyson continued with this method for "balancing the budget" when she suspended the TSA as a "quick fix" to the budget.
Most metro school systems (APS is the exception) pay into Social Security as well as TRS. DeKalb doesn't. This has dramatic consequences for retirees from DeKalb County per the federal Windfall Elimination Provision.
I'm retired, and my Social Security is decreased by 60% because I retired from a system that doesn't pay into Social Security. I paid into the Social Security system for 15 years, but unless I have a minimum of 30 years of payments, I get reduced benefits.
Anyone who changes to teaching for DCSS after paying into Social Security will run up against this. The TSA at least partially ameliorated this situation and was cheaper for DCSS than paying into Social Security. Please take a look at the Windfall Elimination Provision (there is a calculator for those teachers who are nearing retirement or considering whether to continue to working for DCSS or switch to a system that has Social Security):
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10045.html#who
Ms. Tyson and the BOE were looking for "quick fixes" to the budget. They will have a more difficult time this coming year. In their effort to be "fair" to all employees, they really hurt the students.
DCSS is not a jobs program. Ms. Tyson and the BOE need to be looking at the high numbers of admin and support, the high salaries of admin and support and the tens of millions spent on technology and learning programs that are not efficacious for students.
I fear that if we have the same BOE members who seem unable to grasp the nuances of the budget and the objectives of a school system, our students will slide further into the abyss.
Just curious. I recall that when these budget cuts were made last May - June - July - to the tune of over $100 million - the actual shortfall was less - that this number was in anticipation of further cuts from the state come January for 2011. Is this true? Did they make cuts to get ahead of projected state losses in the future? If so, was that smart? I guess if and when the state makes additional cuts it will look smart, but what if we get a new governor who doesn't make cuts to education?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if our board didn't unnecessarily plan for a worst case scenario... What would be so wrong with implementing cuts in two phases? Some in August - some (if necessary) in Jan or May?
I hope they won't try to "forget" that they already planned for future cuts - and if and when the state makes additional cuts, the board tries to cut our budget again.
I may not be clear here ... but hopefully you understand my concern. Can anyone explain this?
Board TSA is still listed on DeKalb Website:
ReplyDeleteBoard TSA vs. Optional TSA Programs
Generally
The Board TSA and the Optional TSA provide investment vehicles to employees governed by Section 403(b) of the IRS Tax Code. Section 403(b) provides the opportunity for tax deferred investments for DeKalb School employees. TSA is an abbreviation for “Tax Sheltered Annuity”. Historically, 403(b) investments were limited to tax sheltered annuity products. In the 1980’s, the tax code was modified to allow investments in mutual funds.
Board TSA
The DeKalb County Board of Education elected to opt out of Social Security in 1978. As an alternative to Social Security, the Board of Education established the “Board TSA” for the School System’s employees. The Board of Education provides contributions into an account for each eligible employee (thus the name “Board” TSA). The employee is not allowed to make contributions into their Board TSA account. The employee is allowed to select the investments in which he/she desires to place the funds.
The Board TSA is collectively considered an institutional investor. There are no fund fees or expenses charged to the employees’ account for investment products offered within the Board TSA. This is a significant and very important difference from the Optional TSA program in which all companies charge investment and expense fees on their products.
Optional TSA
The Optional TSA program allows employees to open an account with an investment company and have pre-tax payroll deductions (called “contributions”) taken from their paycheck. Thus, an Optional TSA account is employee funded.
The employee is able to invest the contributions in mutual funds or annuities offered through these companies. All Optional TSA companies charge investment fees and expenses in this program. Investment fees and expenses vary from company to company and significantly impact the net return an employee experiences on their investments. Additionally, most companies charge surrender fees for withdrawing or rolling over funds in their account to another company.
Employees should always review the companies’ surrender charges as well as investment fees and expenses when deciding where and with which company to invest their funds.
Currently there are four authorized companies: Fidelity, Hartford, ING, or VALIC.
Approved Venders List
VALIC
Stacy Cheney-Jamison
(800) 892-5558 Ext. 87584
Maurice Reese
(800) 892-5558 Ext. 88347
Jacqueline Vogelbacker
(800) 892-5558 Ext. 88109
ING
Mitch Melan
(404) 314-2103
Pam Middleton
(770) 909-0340
Hartford
Robert Moore
(770) 329-6275
Perry Williams
(404) 234-3291
Fidelity Investments
(800)-343-0680
on-site appointments:
(800)-642-7131
Jason Blecker
(404) 697-0448
I guess with regrad to teacher salaries/retirement cuts, they couldn't make promises on which they weren't sure they could deliver. They can always rescind furlough days (fat chance) and start contributing to the board retirement (for which we would then feel oh so grateful--just another way in which we are manipulated). So they covered their bases by going with the worst case scenario.
ReplyDeleteI guess--to cut them some slack--there is also the continued drop in property taxes. I ain't gonna give these folks one bit of credit for foresight, but not all of the cuts are from the state.
Only part of our funding comes from the state with local taxpayers making up the remaining budget. I don't foresee DeKalb property values (property taxes) or sales (sales taxes) to rise in the next year. I predict these BOE members will continue to cut personnel at the schoolhouse level.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of DeKalb property taxes:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.crossroadsnews.com/view/full_story/9647947/article-Uncut-grass--illegal-signs--litter-mar-county%E2%80%99s-south-end?
Mine went up $300 last year...
ReplyDelete@ Cerebration
ReplyDelete"Mine [property tax] went up $300 last year."
Wow! What a coincidence -- $300 is exactly how much BOE member Zepora Roberts paid -- in total -- for her property taxes last year.
Did you all know there is a problem at some of the elementary schools in the lunch rooms?
ReplyDeleteRecently the Health Department told the cafeterias they must not allow the children to clean the tables anymore. Someone somewhere decided the kids needed to take the place of the custodians and wash the tables after they use them. This is at the elementary level only. Must be somebodies brain child to get the kids to "help" their community. Anyway, the brown water concoction that they used after a couple of hours grossed someone out and the health department but the kybosh on it. GROSSS!
The cafeterias were told to come up with a way to clean the tables without having the kids use the new cleaning solution they were mandated to use.
Many schools have creatively answered this problem. Just ask the kids: some are told to "sweep the table" with small brooms and dustpans. Some are given a spray bottle and use paper towels.
I have a better solution to this whole thing...THE CUSTODIAN AND CAFETERIA WORKERS SHOULD WIPE THE TABLES AFTER EACH GROUP VACATES THE TABLE. A novel idea I know. But in the face of salmonella and ecoli, flu season and colds, they should get off their collective seats and actually do the job they are being paid for.
I have seen many a custodian and cafeteria worker sitting lately. This may not be the case at the middle/high school level but it certainly is at the elementary level.
Recently some do gooder parent suggested the parents take in "bleach wipes" to clean the tables since they are not currently cleaned. This is not appropriate cleaning tool for this type of arena nor is this up to snuff for the Health Dept. Nor is the JOB of the parents, we are asked to volunteer and we do. But I draw the line at table washing, there is someone who actually has a JOB and gets paid to do this type of work.
With so many people out of work... maybe the custodial staff needs a bit of reality.
Now I am not, NOT, demeaning the work they do in the schools. I certainly wouldn't want to do this job, that's why I don't. Alot of these kids aren't trained to clean up after themselves , push their chairs in and pick up their mess. That is my job as a parent, it isn't to volunteer to wash tables during lunch. Maybe they could use some of those paper products I supplied at the beginning of the school year if they need paper towels...
My students used to clean the lunchroom tables, and it's not a bad idea. They need to make sure they wash their hands with soap (schools need to ensure this is in place in the restrooms) and understand proper hygiene.
ReplyDeleteI see nothing wrong with asking students to pick up after themselves and sweep occasionally. As a teacher, I used to make sure we kept our room spotless. I dusted and cleaned my shelves every week and expected my students to help. After all, it's their space too. Custodians are not maids.
When students take responsibility for keeping the classrooms and school clean, they don't want to create a mess - isn't that just like your kids at home - if they are responsible for picking up their room, they are less likely to mess it up.
School is not just about academics. It also teaches social skills and shared responsibility.
If teachers and students are pitching in and custodians are working hard, then the school should be spotless. Some school principals do an excellent job of organizing and overseeing custodial staff, and some do a terrible job. If your school is not clean, this is an administrative problem.
I've seen schools in DeKalb that are clean and pleasant and set the tone for respect for learning, and I've seen filthy schools that I wouldn't want my child to enter. Much of this depends on what the principal expects and requires of the people (adults and children) in the school.
Much of this depends on what the principal expects and requires of the people (adults and children) in the school.
ReplyDeleteExtremely true.
@6:09,
ReplyDeleteMost 10 year olds can do some light cleaning after themselves between lunches. And they should be able to handle wash rag. (Some can't because they have maid service)
Granted the before and after lunches should be done by custodians.
If you want to higher or contract out a ton of custodians, go for it. You can't have it both ways.
By the way, we don't have maid service at home because I want to be on the Supreme Court some day.
I must say, that I find some of your comments amusing. Are you saying that it is a bad thing for the children to learn (by doing) that cleaning up after themselves is their responsibility? I hope not. The memo on this went out last spring with about a month left in the school year. As to your suggestion, per the memo that cafeteria or custodial staff clean the tables............that would require one person for two straight hours to do that job.
ReplyDeleteSo what happens? Most principals tell the teachers on lunch duty to do it. Yes, teachers are bussing tables. What
could be more wasteful of my professional training, talent, and ability. Yes, i believe that children should clean their tables and sweep their floors after lunch.
I am nearly 50 years old and we washed the tables at my elementary school. It didn't scar me for life.
ReplyDeleteI will say that I don't understand why the cleanliness of the cafeteria isn't part of the cafeteria workers' responsibility.
@ Anonymous 7:9
ReplyDeleteI only saw one comment that was critical of students cleaning up after themselves. The rest of the comments were supportive of this.
Learning how to keep your work space clean and organized is a great skill. I always organized my kids to keep everything clean and organized so we could maximize my teaching time and their learning time.
Cleaning tables and sweeping floors is not above anyone's pay grade including teachers - I've swept many a floor as I showed kids that I valued a clean and safe environment.
ReplyDeleteThat said, custodians should not ever be sitting down most of the day. We all have responsibilities, and a totally gleaming school environment is a good role model for students as they grow into adulthood.
No teacher or child should have to clean the cafeteria in any school. We have all these high paid admin. the kind of money they make let them clean the cafeteria. you have people like jamal edwards making a high salary and no one knows where he is for 6 months and he still got his check. Give me a break yes it is good for children to learn how to keep things clean but as tax payer and parent i don't want my children cleaning a cafeteria. I send them to school to learn not clean while all those central office people are siting on there fat buts making those high salaries. Get rid of some of them and robert tucker and take that money and hire some people who want to work. Maybe this is ok for some parents but not me. This system has stole, cheated, told lies, taken trips, gas, and gave all there friends and family high paying jobs. HELL NO
ReplyDeleteParents arguing and being upset about a child wiping down a table, is why DCSS is not focusing on educating children.
ReplyDeleteWiping a table down, isn't going to kill any person-adult or child. My 2 year old helps me dust and vacuum our home. When I taught, the kids swept each day and helped me to dust weekly and wipe the desks down daily. No one is above wiping a table down, so that a rest room can be cleaned.
Parents need to focus on the education that their children are not receiving which in my humble opinion, our children are not learning a great deal. I wish that improving the quality of education was a higher priority with parents, as the system is cheating all of the children out of learning on so many levels.
I am focus on my children education and this is what i want for them. I don't have a problem with my kids helping there teacher keep her room clean. I don't want them cleaning a cafeteria. Yes they need to empty there tray and not leave food every where. But when it comes to the cleaning of the cafeteria and r/r this is something the custodian should do. Dekalb got rid of a lot of these people and kept the high paid people. What i am saying is the teachers and the children have enough on there plate and i pray that when we get a new super and board that they will look at the budget and place people where they are needed. We all know that we have too many high paid people in the county. Yes education is first and this is what i want to happen not cleaning so some high paid pencil pusher can sit on his/her but every day. We have sit back and let this system get away with too much and it is time for it to stop. Dekalb has not missed one week of being on the news about all the wrong going on in the county and it is time we take our schools back. I understand what you are saying and i am just saying i don't want my children doing anything like this while we have the big shots keep geting there salaries raised and my children sufer from all the things going on in the system. Do you know how many people they could hire for the $165.thousand dollars they are paying some of the pencil pusher at the central office. No until things change i will keep feeling this way. By the way there are a large number of students out of college that could do a much better job than those friends and family. One of the main problems is we have all these people with these jobs who have no knowledge of what they are doing. It is time for a change so we can get back to the education of our children. I remember when dekalb was one of the best school system in the state of ga.
ReplyDeleteHaving worked at schools were students took turns wiping the table down after they ate, the rest of the school was much cleaner, because the custodian had time to clean the bathrooms, hallways and classrooms properly. Resources of the custodian's time, salary, and benefits were not wasted on wiping down tables, so that the lunch schedule could flow. This is what private schools and well run public schools in other areas do, as they see that keeping a custodian in the lunch room to wipe down tables is a gross misuse of funds.
ReplyDeleteWhy we're at it, I think that the children should clean up the mess that they make as well. If they spill their milk. They should get a mop and clean it up. The custodian isn't there as a maid service for our students, but to keep the school clean and safe.
It doesn't hurt a child to take some cleaner and wipe a table down. It teaches them responsibility and shows them what goes into keeping the school clean. All too often the children of the school are the ones who ruin the rest rooms and don't take pride in their school or the way that it looks. If they had to help take care of it, than they would appreciate the hard work that goes into keeping the school up.
I guess you're one of the parents that also wants your child to have multiple tries to get the work right, instead of expecting them to do it right the first time.
From what I hear, DeKalb has been headed down hill for some time, the quality of education did not get poor over night. It does continue to get worse and worse, because parents are not focused on what their children are learning in the classroom, but are worried that their children's egos may be tarnished by having to clean something that they dirtied.
Actually, it's not ego, it's hygiene. If you have ever seen those kids take that icky bucket of water and dirty sponge and "wash" down the table, you would not be impressed. Then you watch as the next kid sits down and eats food that actually touches that germ-laden surface. The CDC would not be impressed.
ReplyDeleteI think it's fine for kids to pick up around their area, throw out their trash, etc - but the tables should be wiped down by an adult with a spray bottle and clean towel. (Not the same dirty towel over and over again.) This IS a good use of time - as it will prevent the spread of flu and other diseases.
Heck -- I went to Catholic school in the 60s and even the nuns didn't make us wipe down our tables. (They were hygiene freaks -- maybe that's where I got my germophobia.)
But ANON is right -- this is yet another issue that deflects our attention from talking about the big picture...
I was the original poster of the cafeteria issue. I am not against the children picking up after themselves at all. The HEALTH DEPARTMENT, let me say it again, THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, DOES NOT WANT THE CHILDREN WIPING THE TALBES. This was a mandate from them. There is a certain cleaning solution they HAVE TO USE. But, it is not happening.
ReplyDeleteOf course the kids should pick up after themselves, DUH!
The point of the discussion is we have people who are getting paid to do a job, sound familiar, who are not doing it. THis is not a distraction, it's the entire problem. Dekalb is full of this behavior.
I called the county about this and the message left on one administrators vmail was
"...I will call you back at MY earliest convenience". Well that just says it all to me right there.
To think that I am opposed to the children helping out is ridiculous. Obviously, there is tooooo much fat at the top to provide the schools with ample custodial help. And by the way, who cares if it take 2 hours a day to clean the cafeteria. What is more important. The tables being cleaned so that the kids don't miss school or imposing on a person who is being paid to do the job he/she was hired to do?
Why don't you contact the Health Department and lodge a complaint?
ReplyDeleteI contacted the right person at the county level in the DCSS in cafeteria services. I am going to monitor the situation as I was informed they would handle it. Believe me I will contact the Health Dept. if not taken care of soon. I have no problem doing this.
ReplyDeleteEasy, fast, hygenic way to clean tables and desktops:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kaivac.com/p_5-KaiFly
Click on the KaiFly video. Wouldn't take long for a custodian or cafeteria staff to clean all tables.
The important word here is "cross-contamination". Re-using the same rags and dirty water is horrible.
I don't think anyone at the overstaffed Sam Moss Center is an expert on the most advanced ways to clean public facilities. Sam Moss Center Director Steve Donahue (a former principal of course) must have never seen the restrooms at Lakeside, 'cause if he did, he would have them blown up and renovated immediately.
I would hope that the county Health Dept. and the person from Sam Moss in charge of cafeteria and rest room cleaning would have a strong working relationship and meet regularly. The county health Dept. has just as big of a responsibility to work with Sam Moss to make sure our schools are kept as clean and sanitary as possible.
"I guess you're one of the parents that also wants your child to have multiple tries to get the work right, instead of expecting them to do it right the first time."
ReplyDeleteActually, no. Far from it. How could you possibly come up with this from my post? I don't feel kids are "too good" for anything. My kid cleans the bathroom and does chores at home.
I expect people to do the job they are paid to do. I expect children to go to school and learn. I expect my child to clean up after herself. As to this comment above. I don't believe in this at all. AT any given time the child should be expected to know the material. That is what pop quizzes are for. If graded work comes home with a problem, we fix it. Not for a better grade, for the sake of her education.
I want/expect my child to be accountable and responsible. I want her to do the job she is expected to do, she is paid in good grades for her hard work.
The issue I raised is purely one of health and "ick" factor,
Let's not forget, if my kid is sick, chances are your kid will get sick too.
in Japan the students also clean the restrooms, mop[ the halls, and mow the grass. That's why Japan is so far behind DCSS in their test scores. The cafeteria workers should cncentrate on preparing good utrious food, serving it, and washing the dishes and keeping the kitchen spotless. Maybe I could tell the kids and parents who don't seem to value education that menial labor is what they have to look forward to if they don't value education more. Or there are the choices I had as a student, be a good citizen, go to jail, or join the armed forces. As it is too many are chosing jail whether they know it or not and each year of imprisonment costs you the taxpayer three times what it costs to send a kid to DCSS. How many people do you think are in jail or prison in Georgia at anyone time? Over 17,000 admitted to Georgia prisons each year at $30,000 per year. A total of 44,000 in county jails and 47,000 in state prisons at any one time. That's about 2.7 billon a year not counting the tax revenue lost. Let's worry some more about keeping the cafeterias clean.
ReplyDelete"How can we do right by our children?" Vote the incumbents out on November 2nd. These folks are responsible for the corruption, graft and out and out deplorable conditions at the majority of the DCSS properties.
ReplyDeleteIt's time for change and the incumbents know they have been poor stewards of OUR tax dollars.
November 2nd can't come fast enough!
To do right by our chilren? Stop fooling with the WHAT of learning.
ReplyDeleteCurriculum, this is the key. Have you seen the curriculum? They are all over the place. I think its great to touch on algebra in the fourth grade. But, math mountains in the first grade, offering 5 different strategies to solve math problems? This is ridiculous.
Something is lost on these people who sit and decide WHAT our kids will learn. They are grasping at anything that comes along. I spoke to one 3 years back and she said they were getting away from teaching a basal math method. (That's wrote learning by memory, times tables, addition facts for those not in the know.) Then 2 years later it was,
"You must know your math facts!" The curriculum is changed too frequently. Just teach it better. Allow the teachers to used tried and true methods of education.
The best strategy is to get them to sit down, be quiet, and listen. Classroom management is an issue. This is largely the fault of the parents, not the teachers. These kids are not fed breakfast, even though its free to so many, helped with their homework, and expected to behave by their parents. The school can't do what the parents won't. Discipline. Real self discipline is not being taught at home.
So many parents, probably not those that care enough to blog about it, aren't capable of disciplining themselves let alone their own children.
That quality that we learned to strive for better, do what is expected and more is lost on the kids of today. Simply because their parent or parents are not setting the example or expecting it from their kids.
Well said 8:37.
ReplyDeleteI think that the curriculum will just worse, because we do not have someone who understands that we are not developing any sort of foundation in our elementary schools. Very sad.
The current bloated curriculum departmnet spends time justifying why they are there. I went to one of their "MATH MEETINGS". They spent the entire morning telling the parents (of the 30 or so that cared enough to spend a Saturday in a school), we had to partner with them. They expect each moment we are with our children to be teachable moment.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I get it and I agree but this is a bit unrealistic. I thought that is what the teachers are for anyway, to teach my kid.
My kid gets this attention from me because I choose to be this involved, but how many don't get this from their parents.
People are tired and spend very little time with their kids as it is. To spend all of my time teaching Johnny that 1/2 cup of flour and 1/4 cup of flour makes 3/4 cups of flour is something I can do, but I don't want to spend every waking hour educating my child.
If this is the case, let me have the $8K DCSS system spends on my FTE and we will home school or go to private school. I can do alot with $8K.
Before youthrow the Samm Moss employees under the bus, please realize this is a systemic problem from the top down. There is never enough money available to do basic maintenance and parts/supply orders. the "credit cards" never have available money so the parts/ supplies do not get ordered, so the repair/maintenance does not get done. What happens at your house if there is NEVER maintenance done. It's a basic principle these fools cannot seem to grasp.
ReplyDeleteMany teachers at Dresden has been complaining about our Instructional Coach. We have comlained to the administration about her sitting at her desk all day. Her desk faces the door to the hallway. As you pass the in the hall you can see her sitting at her desk. Now she has placed a portable whiteboard in front of her desk. You can't see her anymoe. What a novel idea! Also,can an instructional coach use school money to buy a book by ne of her good friends from Chicago? He even autographed it for each teacher. I believe it was called Fred and Mary. Is there no on out there checking into improprierities? I thought we were trying to clean up the county.
ReplyDeleteWho evaulates the school librarians? Teachers of the school should be able to fill out an end of year evaluations on all special area teachers, Sp.Ed teachers and ESOL teachers.
ReplyDeleteAt Dresden our librarian has trie to get the para fired and transferred. The only person the students relate to is Mr. Johnson, the para. He got mentor of the year last year and this year got Para of the Year. It is obvious to everyone she is jealous of him because he does all the work and she sits in her office with TV on and door closed. She doesn't know how to maanage library when he is not there. There hsve been many complaints made to the administration and nothing is done about it. She says she is a "classroom libriarian meaning she goes to the classrooms to each library lessons. Maybe in two years she has been to 3 or 4 classrooms. No one wants her to come in their classroom. They don't even want to come in the library. Why don't classroom teachers have a voice in accountability?