The link on the DCSS Website for all to see. Click here to download all of the presentation files from last night's meeting. They are listed under the heading "Options (3 Jan 2011)".
The AJC has a report on the meeting titled, 14 DeKalb schools on proposed closure list.
On Monday night, the school board unveiled a comprehensive redistricting proposal that calls for 12 elementary schools to close: Livsey, Medlock, Rock Chapel, Bob Mathis, Atherton, Glen Haven, Gresham Park, Sky Haven, Toney, Peachcrest, Wadsworth and Kittredge. The proposal also calls for Avondale Middle and Avondale High to be closed and used to house magnet programs.
Good luck and happy hunting.
UPDATE: For those of you having trouble downloading the very large map files, one of our very helpful and technical bloggers has graciously downloaded them, downsized them, and repackaged them as a bundle. Unfortunately, since this blog is powered by Blogger and not WordPress, I can't store the file for you to download. But if you would like it, send me an email and I'll send it to you as an attachment. -Cere
reparteeforfun@gmail.com
283 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 283 of 283@ anonymous 2:18
"The answer is that some will go back into the system where needed- consolidated schools will have more students and need more teachers and some staff. They will also get more points from the state allowing art, music, and other opportunities that some of our students do not get now. As for the principals and vice principals, there is usually enough attrition to take care of at least half of them. '
This is exactly what we don't need. We need to cut non-teaching staff in order to keep and add to teaching staff. I can see that Wadworth's 150 students after they are absorbed into the larger magnet school would need the 9 homeroom teachers (that's a 17 student to one teacher ratio), but do you really think DCSS will have need for:
5 Enrichment teachers
1 CTSS
1 PE teacher
2 Spanish teachers
1 Nurse
3 Custodians
6 Cafeteria Workers
1 Principal
1 Assistant Principal
1 Counselor
1 Bookkeeper
1 Administrative Assistant
...that currently are employed in this school.
We must cut admin and support numbers and let the remaining personnel take on additional responsibilities. We have asked teachers to do this more and more year after year and this has drained planning and instructional time from the classroom.
We need to see a significant number of personnel in the admin and support numbers let go and teachers added to the classrooms. This is the only way students will improve in achievement. It's not about the adult workers - it's about students - the school system ONLY exists for them. Taxpayers ONLY pay taxes and support the school system for them. Ms. Tyson should be able to tell the public exactly how much we will be saving through eliminating redundant positions and have a plan to measure that savings. This should also be made public.
If the two elementary magnet schools and the two middle school magnets are combined only one principal will become redundant since the two middle school principals will still have their resident schools.
Under the centrilaztion plan the number of students at CMS and CHS will do down by about 200 students. I do not understand this move if the goal for middle schools is 1200 and high schools is 1600. However that does leave them open for NCLB transfers every year.
The Avondale schools are closed in either plan. The problem seems to be small elementary schools whether you are discussing resident programs or magnet programs. Also I do not understand why students are being moved from Fernbank if the goal is 900 students for elementary schools.
If you have not done so, look at numbers per school for each option. Henderson and Lakeside remain overcrowded for both options. It looks as though no one wanted to change their lines very much. If the goal is right sizing the schools then the lines for Cross Keys should go into the Lakeside area and the Chamblee area expanded even more. Or something. Look at the numbers. If you move the Magnets out of CHS and CMS the number of students for those schools go down and not enough students are added back by redrawing the lines.
Also at the high school level moving the magnets to a central location may actually add a new principal position since you will still have the resident programs for SWD and CHS. How many students will be in the new Magnet high school. I guess some of the APs, counselors, etc. will move to the magnet but some will stay at the resident school. I am not sure that you will have that many redundant staff. There are so many staff per number of students. Moving them into a different facility does not change the number of teachers needed including language, music, art, PE,etc. Actually it may create new positions if there is only one art teacher or music teacher at the middle school and that position stays at the resident school. A plan that shows how teachers, admin, support, counselors, etc are to be allocated if the magnets move to Avondale needs to be included before this is hailed as a great cost saver.
Enbedding the elementary magnet programs into an existing underenrolled elementary school may actually be more of a cost saving measure,
Cere, you are 100% correct that the issue is to consolidate small schools to earn the state money that we are now losing. But consolidating magnet schools has nothing to do with this issue, except for Wadsworth. They would save TONS more by eliminating magnet transportation and agressively increasing the enrollment at Wadsworth.
I think the magnet issue is a waste of time and a red herring. the real issue is consolidating the tiny elementary schools. But then we all have to listen to SCW rant about the racism.
If you study the maps, there are many, many places where the consultants are moving very small patches into X district and then moving an equally small patch out of the same district. It really makes no sense to me to cause this level of disruption. Is moving 100 students really worth the time, expense and hassle? NO. Is consolidating two schools of 200 students worth it? Heck yes.
I suspect that their marching orders were to "touch" every area and every cluster EXCEPT don't touch Arabia Mountain HS.
Cere: " ... so quiet ..."
Well, I've found that I add more value when I'm quiet on average :) ... but seriously, I've been waiting to see what comes out of the recommendations and I've been very busy close to home personally and at CK. Cooking up a few nice surprises for everyone ;)
Anon: "There are lots of children who live in apartments who happen to be highly motivated and even gifted"
Amen! Here's one of the lowly apartment dwellers ... he's bound for Williams College:
Mpaza Kapembwa
@ Kim
I agree that there have been some pretty harsh words for Fernbank parents.
However, I'm concerned that Briar Vista is considered such an inadequate school by the Fernbank parents (their words say one thing, but their actions say another). Briar Vista is a wonderful school with a number of Hispanic students and a quite a few disadvantaged students (over 50%) yet they made AYP.
The email to the community calling for "legal" action and "signature-gathering" to recall BOE members who vote for redistricting 105 students into Briar Vista seems pretty extreme to me. They are not opposed to redistricting other schools or closing the many neighborhood schools on the chopping block - no threats of recalling BOE members for those schools - just if they touch Fernbank.
I'm sorry, but that email to the community threatening BOE members with recall and wanting to tap into anyone in the community who can "influencing the outcome of this process in our favor" seems unseemly over a few students being redistricted to a perfectly fine school when our district is in a deficit, classrooms all over the county have unwieldy class sizes, and so many small schools are looking at existing no more.
Again, with respect to Briar Vista, and I won't pull up their scores here, but imagine this scenario: It's your child, and chances are he or she qualifies as gifted under district guidelines; you can give him or her an environment that demonstrates 98-100% meets or exceeds (largely exceeds -- the school has somewhere b/t 30-40% gifted) or you can move to a school, with all the accompanying social anxiety for your child -- who is 6, or 8 , or 9 -- to a school that, again from memory, but am happily corrected by DOE data -- performs anywhere from low to mid-50s to mid-70s and low-80s on the same tests. Are you going to send your child there? Stated differently, it's not unlike being presented with a 98-100% treatment success rate, albeit for an illness. It's your child -- do you go ahead and say, no problem, I'll take the 50-80% percent success rate, or do you fight for the well-being and academic challenge and success of your child at a school that produces 98-100% success.
It's not just the buildings and it's not just the students and it's not just the teachers, it's the total environment.
@ anonymous 12:11
Actually, my child was highly gifted - in the 99 percentile in Cogat scores and 99 percentile in every ITBS achievement score. I was always more worried about her social aspect - getting along with others and being a good and kind person with strong moral values. I would not have hesitated to send her to a school like Briar Vista. You see I taught gifted in various schools in DCSS - some very high in test scores and some middle of the road. I've kept up with so many of my ex-students as they're now all grown up and through college and in the working world. It turns out that for my gifted students their successes in life were not altered by going to a very high school or a middle of the road school. The variation in their successes lay within themselves. BTW - I know a lot about Fernbank students. They are wonderful students there, and they will be wonderful students anywhere.
at 12:38,
then where did she go to school and in what years? That gives us relevant data to determine the credibility, in our opinions, about where you may or may not have happily sent her. I don't know a parent on this earth that would happily say, "no problem, I'll send my kid" to a school with a totally different curriculum (IB vs. half-Montessori/half-whatever-Beaseley-has-annointed-at-the-moment) and totally different scores. It's not in a parent's DNA to willingly let your children, your babies, go to school anywhere than where you have decided (and invested) where you think is best.
@11:40. Cere has explained the cost savings pretty concisely (w/o values) throughout this blog. As to your references to how this current plan impacts the goals to moving to larger es, ms, and hs schools and your suggestion that the consolidation suggested at this point in time is counter-intuitive to this plan, I would respectfully disagree.
While on its face, your argument has some validity, the fact of the matter is that any system must have both long and short term goals. To put off consolidation would cause the system to continue to lose valuable resources RIGHT NOW, a time when resources are dwindling. Cere notes in many different spots that much of the cost savings comes through right sizing the schools (you cannot look at how many students your school alone has, but rather must look at the redistricting effort as ensuring that schools are meeting the funding requirements of the state in order to receive these valuable funds). Again, we must remember that the state also has participated in this process, trying to ensure that board members and constituents are more fully informed about the requirements that must be met to receive state resources. The process was not isolated with just the consultants.
Furthermore, to put off consolidation/redistricting suggestions because they do not meet long term goals today is significantly short sighted. After all, there is no guarantee that funds necessary to generate facilities that can support student populations of recommended sizes are forthcoming anytime soon.
Strategic planning necessitates the posing of long and short term goals, and the long term goals do not have to individually meet long term goals. In this situation, even if we had the money (which we clearly don't), building construction would preclude moving to the long term goals by next fall.
To those posters who say that it should not be only about the money, I would suggest that it is not. It is about the ability to provide additional resources to kids who are currently in schools that are either a)overcrowded and in need of relief, or b) under enrolled and thus losing out on programming that enhances and improves educational outcomes.
If you look at the heading of your browser when you click on the redistricting link provided, you'll see that the word is spelled (or rather misspelled) Redistrcting - missing a vowel... and somewhat telling of who is in the driver's seat of our children's future.
In looking at the Dunwoody Attendance lines, in terms of Kingsley Elementary School, it appears the only change is that 40 students from Chesnut will move to Kingsley? Correct?
I'm pleased all options for north DeKalb preserve the I-85 "line of demarcation". When you cross it, in either direction, it's like you're in a different world.
I happen to think the consolidation is about freeing up space for both short term goals (relieving immediate overcrowding) and long term goals (relieving future overcrowding, [perhaps closing or repurposing other schools) rather than necessarily tremendous cash savings right now.
2:21 a.m.
You should look at the maps again- especially the centralized option. There are many changes proposed for the Dunwooody elementary schools, including moves across 285. Also looks like they plan to move the area just outside 285 so it will feed into CMS and CHS. If this includes apartment complexes I am sure the Dunwoody parents are jumping for joy since they always have such disdain for "apartment dwellers."
just so you know Montgomery Mom@ 11:48
promethean boards are still the property of the Kittredge PTA, they do not belong to the school building. any funds Pta spends to improve the school, technology, if lost due to theft, the school's insurance doesn't cover. They go WILL with the Magnet program to the centralized location at avondale ms.
If you need clarification on this point, just ask the Briarlake PTA who had several stolen tv's computers, promo board stolen. The county said SORRY IT'S SIMPLY NOT OUR PROBLEM. THIS IS A HEADS UP FOR ALL THOSE FOLKS GUN HO TO FUND RAISE FOR THESE THINGS, YOUR PTA NEEDS INSURANCE COVERAGE TOO!
"Personally, I think the BoE has already decided to go with the "centalized" model on February 28th. It closes the most schools and saves the most money."
To Anon @1:02
I read in one article that Ramona T. will most likely make a completely different recommendation altogether than offered by these consultants, making all the money, $400K, just a show. I was left with the impression she does have a third option ready to go. Sorry, wish I could find the article and repost.
@anon 7:02a
Dunwoody's "distain" for apt dwellers lies completely in the fact that in the last attempt at redistricting they put all the apt complexes in the same school--the brand new school. This was the reason we sounded like the "Fernbank crowd" in the last go around. If they divided all the complexes equitably, there would be very little grumbling. I'm wondering if that is the reason there hasn't been much said on this string from my fellow Dunwoody Cluster friends. Not even about the move from 4-5 academy to K-5. Very quiet up here......
For all those who don't get the magnet issue and why its a great way to educate:
Going to school with children who are of like mind to your child provides them the ability to sit in class and just learn.
When my daughter was in a regular school, she was never challenged. She was often distracted and overlooked and the teachers spent more time on discipline. Teacher's energy was spent dealing with other issues rather than developing innovative ways to teach children of all levels.
She works harder at the magnet to obtain the same grades. The kids in these schools are there to learn. They still have kid problems, but most kids who excel at a magnet are active learners and need the constant challenges and higher enrichment a magnet provides. Teachers spend more time developing ways to educate these kids, they use the curriculum as a base and springboard from there. If the county wants to duplicate this method, raise the expectations. There is accountability in all aspects of a magnet school. There are consequences, a lot of them, for discipline issues or poor grades. A magnet offers a child a great opportunity but EXPECTS better participation from parents and the child MUST perform.
I didn't get it either when my girl was at a neighborhood school. It's just different.
Magnets were designed to pull children to areas. Thus the name magnets.
Consolidate the magnets into the areas where you need students.
Fernbank is fighting to keep students because they understand that they will lose specials if they shrink.
Many of us, though, have children who attend schools where only PE and music is offered, or Pe and Art, etc.
There has to be a way to fix this issue.
Whether it is redistricting or reallocating funds, every student in DCSS should have the same opportunities.
Good point Anon 8:17 about magnets being designed to attract. I read somewhere else in this blog that the magnet program was placed at Chamblee High School to attract students from across the district and this resulted in that school building remaining open. If they build a replacement school that can hold 2000 students, why couldn't that also consolidate Cross Keys and Chamblee together by using the resident populations in those areas?
The new lines in Dunwoody put all the apartments in the new school. I think the people with the drive to fight are worn out. Congrats to the political strong arms. Unless we start advocating for ourselves there will be no apartments at vanderlyn or austin.
@anon 8:55, not sure what you see on the maps, but from what I see, Vanderlyn will keep the apts on Womack/Ash Dun. Austin will keep the apts it currently has (I think it's just one complex) Chesnut gets some additional complexes. Dun Elem does get more, but definitely not all this time.
Politmom
You are wrong on many levels. First, right now Austin has all the apartments on Ashford-Dunwoody. In both plans, the apartments on Mt. Vernon stay, the Ashford - Dunwoody complexes are gone in both.
Second, in one scenario, Vanderlyn keeps the one complex it has, in another it doesn't.
Dunwoody Elem gets more because its a larger school. Chesnut will still have its fair share. And we will be sadly without our friends at Georgetown (in the section slated for Nancy Creek) which is primarily single family houses, and our friends between Peeler and N. Peachtree that will be going to Kingsley. Potentially, my children's friends will be spread throughout Kingsley, Dunwoody Elem, and Nancy Creek. It's quite a dispersal.
While I don't disagree that I'm likely wrong on many levels, I'm pretty sure I'm reading the apts correctly--at least in the decentralized option. I'm just not taking the centralized option that seriously because I am that confident the magnet community will have a huge influence on keeping them where they are. Also-in the centralized option, they cross 285 up here and move a bunch of Chesnut kids over to Nancy Creek--taking them out of the city limits and creating a big brew-ha-ha that I'm sure won't be ignored. I might be too cynical on this one, but I am convinced we will end up with a version of the decentralized option becuase our BOE isn't tough enough to withstand the lobbying.
Fernbank parent who likens going to Briar Vista to an illness - do you not think the entire environment at Briar Vista will change if 105 Fernbank students go there? It's not like they're asking 1 student to go to Briar Vista. And having moved my small children several times, they adjust. Well, they adjust unless they see their grown parents acting like babies.
Re the Fernbank parents and the reaction to the redistricting, I think that what people fail to realize is that the families impacted generally have the resources to live and send their children to school wherever they want. They chose to live in Druid Hills specifically because of Fernbank. The notion that 103 of the most educated, affluent parents in Dekalb County willinging are going to send their children to Briar Vista without a knock-down, drag-out fight is laughable. This will end one of two ways -- Fernbank is untouched or 90-95 of the 103 students end up out of the Dekalb system forever in private schools. There is not a scenario currently on the table where Briar Vista will end up anything like Fernbank in terms of parent support or resources. The clear winner in all of this -- the coffers of the Atlanta private schools from the sudden influx of nonrefundable application fees.
Politimom,
With all do respect, in the decentralized plan, DES will be overcrowded, will encompass all future growth, and will have a student mix much different than where most of the kids are coming from. Exactly how is that good for our community as a whole. That is unless you are not in the DES attendance area.
Some of the above comments above are good questions - I will move them to the new thread called -- "Questions"...
@ Anonymous 1:06 am
"...then where did she go to school and in what years? That gives us relevant data to determine the credibility, in our opinions, about where you may or may not have happily sent her..."
My child went to Briarlake although she could have gone to Fernbank since I taught there many of her school years. I had nothing against Fernbank since it's a very fine school, but Briarlake was a good school then and a good school now - fairly low key and laid back, and it was the neighborhood school. I taught regular ed and gifted at a number of other schools - some medium and some lower income. I taught over 1,000 gifted kids in my career, and I can say they are everywhere, in every school, and come from all income levels. What an incredible privilege it was to teach them. Every day was special.
In my opinion, kids are kids. They are more than relevant data, and as they pass through life, they will surprise you with their choices of friends, careers, and interests.
I knew my daughter would do fine academically anywhere. I was more interested in Es in Conduct than As in subjects, and she got both. Learning to get along with others and realizing you won't always be the smartest person in the room are two of the most valuable lessons for all gifted kids. Their march to a different drummer often puts them out of step with the rest of the world. Learning to live comfortably in that world is truly their most valuable lesson. My daughter is in her 20s now. She's a kind and considerate person with many friends and supports herself quite nicely.
My credibility is not an issue. You are the one making decisions for your child, and you sound like the type of involved parent that is more than capable of making wise decisions. All I can say is I would have happily sent my child to a school like Briar Vista (I actually know a lot about that school currently as well) if we had been rezoned. The parents I know that sent/send their children there, some regular ed and some gifted students, loved/love that school the same way you love Fernbank.
"will have a student mix much different than where most of the kids are coming from. Exactly how is that good for our community as a whole."
Wow. I am speechless.
I would gladly send my child to the new DES and it would be a great thing to go to school with all of the children from this community.
And it will not be overcrowded. Under the centralized plan it will be at 92% and the de-centralized plan it will be 100%.
Kirsten,
Again, you would gladly send your child there. But noone is forcing you to are they?
As far as capacity. The school was built with a capacity of a bit under 1000, now it can hold 1100? And ALL the growth will go there.
By the way, I have and would happily send my child to economically and racially diverse schools. Why can't we make all of our schools rich with these opportunities? There are other ways to slice the apple.
Does BriarVista still offer the Montessori program?
I disagree that ALL the growth will go to DES. With so many neighborhoods turning over, the growth will be at all the schools--just look at the future projections. All the retirees in Dun North, Meadowlake, Redfield, Wintercreek, etc. etc. are making way for young families. Those neighborhoods all feed into the other schools. If you haven't noticed--no more apts are being built--all those vacant properties are in bankruptcy for the forseeable future.
Cere
It does, but it is no longer whole school. Starting this year, there is a montessori program and a traditional program, the same as Huntley Hills and Midway.
I would really like to hear from ANYONE being redistricted into DES or Briar Vista that feels they are going to get the same educational opportunities and community?
If you are not part of that group, you have no right to judge our feelings or how our angst is communicated. Unless of course you are one of the poor soles being sent from Druid Hills to Clarkston.
Anon 10:29
That kind of growth is slow and steady. The kind of growth that may hit Dunwoody Elementary School is hard and heavy because, at least in the decentralized plan, all the large parcels are located in the dunwoody elementary zone.
In addition, the system has messed with the capapcities of almost all the schools increasing them without rhyme or reason. Dunwoody Elementary doesn't hole 1100 students.
I go to Briar Vista and have many friends at Fernbank. While I do understand their concern, I will say our school is lovely. Yes we have issues. Yes we need parent support, and yes we need funding. Because we have been montessori, our numbers are low giving us no funding from state for programs.
I ask Fernbank to come see our school before they bash it. The test scores do not accurately affect us b/c we have been Montessori for 10 years. We have only just changed last year.
We live in an "affluent" neighborhood and my daughter loves briar vista, loves the montessori prgram and loves the people.
I hope this does not become a bash on our small school.
In addition, I think Fernbank calling for "influence" sounds dirty and we are all over the "dirtiness in the DCSB" so lets not promote it in our communities.
Dont knock Briar Vista until you try it - "you know not what of you speak".
No one is forcing me because, sadly, my neighborhood was not chosen to go there, but I wish it was. It has an existing infrastructure, no uniform policy, and many of our friends will be going there.
And I believe that the seating capacity for all of the schools was mysteriously raised a bit, not just DES. The presentation also clearly states that they are allowing schools up to 110% capacity.
Briar Vista has 2 program offerings - traditional and montessori. All of our teachers are specialized in Montessori so even our traditional program benefits from creative teaching.
Briar Vista is a diamond in the rough - an underreated school.
We welcome any Fernbank parents to our community and think they can add alot to our school.
BTW - Briar Vista is also a SCHOOL of choice. I am in Fernbank district and opted for Briar Vista. So we all dont feel that way. Fernbank is too crowded, no diversity. It is a great school but it is not the ONLY school.
Guys -
this is not about Fernbank.
This is about balancing out educational resources, cutting budget (not teachers and jobs) and reblanacing districts that are so out of balance, its' not fair or healthy.
Overpopulated schools are not healthy and underpopulated schools dont receive any funduing to be good schools.
I think the lnes should be redrawn and with that Dekalb county board shoudl approve a education plan that will get all schools to the same level.
And BTW, I go to Fernbank but think Briar vista and the parents are lovely people. They work hard at their school and the test scores do not reflect the true adequecy of the school b/c they have been Montessori 100% for 10 years. It was only last year the program changed, therefore so did testing.
I understand we all are emotional about this issue. But I ask that we not put down our neighbor, our neighboring schools, make threats, and play dirty b/c we dont get exactly what we want.
Out of 99,000 kids fgernbank's 120 kids should not be put as a priority.
This is saying that academics is more important at good schools. If your child is good in school, they will be fine. If you are active at fernbank - you will be active at Briarvista.
The schools can change - give them a chance to get funding and get balanced!
"There is not a scenario currently on the table where Briar Vista will end up anything like Fernbank in terms of parent support or resources. The clear winner in all of this -- the coffers of the Atlanta private schools from the sudden influx of nonrefundable application fees. "
Perhaps the winner will be Briar Vista since the parents who end up sending their children to this school will be committed to that school. Briar Vista is a terrific school with wonderful kids and high quality teachers. I guess that's what's so shocking about the organizing opposition email. Have the leaders of this coalition actually gone to Briar Vista to visit the school?
Re: apartments
It's not going to be possible to distribute kids in apartment complexes "fairly" across all of Dunwoody (as an example.) Some schools are closer to apartment complexes than others. That's a fact and every map confirms it.
If you are going to divide up the kids that reside here like slices of pie, you will have kids bussed all the way across town to attend school, while passing other, closer schools on the way. That's exactly what families in Central and South DeKalb are complaining about right now!!! Why would you duplicate a problem just for some nebulous fantasy of "equality"?
Since you're introducing bussing into the equation, take a look back at historical attempts at that to force "equality". Didn't work too well, did it?
Finally, there are plenty of "green weenies" in Dunwoody who are gung-ho about some "Garden of Eden" in their minds where all automobiles are bad and we have to raise our own chickens for food and ride Segways or bicycles to get anywhere. You'll get resistence from them if you try to send kids to anything but the nearest school.
So those of you who think you have to split up apartment complexes among schools to be "equal" - how would you handle the above? I don't think you can.
I'm surprised that no one has commented on Sagamore Hills Elem. becoming a single feeder into Shamrock/Druid Hills. The school (and its surrounding neighborhood) is about 1 mile from Lakeside, but 6 miles (through the Emory campus and all its traffic, nonetheless)from Druid Hills HS. But yet, elementary schools outside 285 - basically Tucker are zoned for Lakeside. Can't make any sense of that.
You absolutely can draw different attendance lines. For instance there are single family homes farther from Austin than some of the apartments. Some other changes in the very norhtern part of Dunwoody could change as well.
The proposed changes do not affect the majority of Dunwoody residents or Fernbank. In fact in Dunwoody those communities will have small neighborhood schools with strong parent involvement and community feel.
@ Anon 11:33
"Briar Vista is a terrific school with wonderful kids and high quality teachers."
That may well be true, but by any empirical measure (test scores, property values, number of out of zone students trying to get in), Briar Vista is not as good as Fernbank and is unlikely to get there in the 1-5 years a current Fernbank student would spend there.
The families with young children who pay the premium to move into Druid Hills do so because of Fernbank and a general predisposition toward public education. They choose their school with their housing choice. If they wanted to live in the Briar Vista district, they would have moved there.
Now, their choice of school based on housing location is being taken away and replaced with an empirically inferior public option, so they naturally will put the interests of their children ahead of their desire for public education. Because they can afford it, they will make a different school choice using their wallets, depriving Dekalb County schools of highly motivated, highly involved parents and students.
That reality may be harsh, it may be perceived by some as unfair and may violate some people's yearning for everyone to be equal, but it's the truth.
@Anon 8:14:
Your post just rubbed me the wrong way - you appear to think those whose children are not in the magnet are somehow benighted.
Going to school with children who are of like mind to your child provides them the ability to sit in class and just learn.
Really - do you not think parents of kids who didn't "win the lottery" KNOW this? Do we just not care??
When my daughter was in a regular school, she was never challenged. She was often distracted and overlooked and the teachers spent more time on discipline. Teacher's energy was spent dealing with other issues rather than developing innovative ways to teach children of all levels.
Again, we get that too, and we are HUGELY frustrated because our kids are STILL IN THAT CLASSROOM!! And our kids are being taught by teachers who don't have the LUXURY of developing innovative teaching methods - they are still dealing with the reality of a mixed-level classroom.
The kids in these schools are there to learn. So is my kid. ... most kids who excel at a magnet are active learners and need the constant challenges and higher enrichment a magnet provides. SO DO THE KIDS "LEFT BEHIND" AT YOUR KID'S OLD SCHOOL!!!
Teachers spend more time developing ways to educate these kids, they use the curriculum as a base and springboard from there.
As you observed yourself, the teachers have the time and latitude to do this because they don't have to deal with the distractions and problems the teachers in regular schools do.
If the county wants to duplicate this method, raise the expectations. There is accountability in all aspects of a magnet school. There are consequences, a lot of them, for discipline issues or poor grades. A magnet offers a child a great opportunity but EXPECTS better participation from parents and the child MUST perform.
I agree with you. How do we bring this about??
Anon 10:02 makes a very good point. When I looked at the maps, my first thought was "OMG, those folks will just leave DCSS entirely."
The only reason those kids were in public school at all is that it was Fernbank - I predict a run on Padeia - it's just as close.
It's unfortunate, because the Fernbank kids usually continued on to Shamrock and Druid Hills because they had formed friendships and didn't want to leave their buddies. The exodus will affect both these schools, too, and I mean in terms of activism and $$$.
"Anon 10:02 makes a very good point. When I looked at the maps, my first thought was "OMG, those folks will just leave DCSS entirely."
The only reason those kids were in public school at all is that it was Fernbank - I predict a run on Padeia - it's just as close. "
Well, a lot of Fernbank kids went to private school when "M to M" was instituted, and many more opted for private when parents were afraid they might be bused to south DeKalb (mostly Padeia - although remember Padeia wants only the brightest so they will have to test into the school).
The school system survived. Private school is always an option. They will still pay the same property taxes regardless.
Briar Vista will also do just fine if they don't want to grace it with their presence.
Public school means just that - public - paid for by taxpayer dollars and subject to redistricting to ensure those dollars are used cost efficiently and equitably. There are other benefits in a public school education, but you may be right in that those benefits will not be considered by some of these parents.
"And to those that keep referring to dramatic property value impacts, my digging into studies on this question convince me that the impact is marginal - 2-4% of the overall valuation.:
Kim, this may be true overall, but it is not the case in specific neighborhoods. In Sagamore Hills,where the elementary school is a split feeder, very lovely and equal houses in all other respects differ by $50K in valuation, depending on whether the zoning is to Druid Hills or Lakeside. And we do not have such outstanding homes that $50K is only 2%!
Is the issue the quality of the schools? NOT AT ALL. Druid Hills has a great IB program; Lakeside has outstanding AP offerings. Both schools are surrounded by great neighborhoods with good students and both are swamped with AYP and administrative transfers. The difference? It is geography/transportation.
Lakeside is 1 mile from the Sagamore Hills neighborhood, on residential streets, but Druid Hills is 6 or 7 miles away on heavily congested major throughfares leading to an Emory-clogged island.
I have questions about the redistricting (not the consolidation/closures that mostly seem to make sense) that did little more in this area of the county than shuffle approximately equal numbers of students around between elementary/middle/high schools that will finally result in approximately equal numbers of students in the same overcrowded facilities, just coming from different elementary schools than they do now!
I look at Cross Keys and Chamblee super cluster lines and am appalled(resident only-- don't even want to get into magnet issues since that has co=opted the entire discussion, though perhaps it is unavoidable because of the leading way that the data/plans were structured, inevitably putting the focus on centralized vs decentralized, with other issues becoming somewhat secondary). I am outraged that same east to west lines continued, forcing cross county travel.
That has happened in my super cluster too, leaving 2 schools outside of 285 still districted to Lakeside that is 7 miles away, while moving students from a school 1 mile away to another one 6 miles away. Now 2 sets of students will travel, instead of putting students at schools near their neighborhoods.
Can't the demographer/MGT look at changing the shape of the clusters? Why do they think superclusters have to be mostly east to west?Why can't they be north to south, circular, square, or whatever makes sense geographically based on existing large streets and natural dividing lines and efficient transportation?
Part of the issue is the lack of planning years ago when high schools were repurposed to middle schools. Some of the locations inevitably lend themselves to poor transportation patterns. For instance, Evansdale is very close to Henderson Middle, much more so than Tucker Middle. So, it makes sense to go to HMS from a transportation point of view. But, Evansdale is very close to Tucker High, and not at all near Lakeside, where the current HMS feeder pattern leads to. But then, I'm one of the rare weirdos who thinks that school attendance should be geography-based, not feeder pattern based. The transition from elementary to middle school should be with one's friends and peers, but by high school, cohorts of neighborhood students need to transition into schools with "new blood".
BTW - BVE doesnt suck or have scores in 50-70. these are the current scores from Greatschool.
No - they are nOt as high as fernbank but they are also not as low as everyone makes it seem. Plus they made AYP the last 2 years in a row. This has come up alot in the last few years.
fernbank parents should get their facts straight before bashing this school.
Briar Vista Elementary School 76% 85% 95%
Fernbank Elementary School 94% 96% 97%
"That has happened in my super cluster too, leaving 2 schools outside of 285 still districted to Lakeside that is 7 miles away, while moving students from a school 1 mile away to another one 6 miles away. Now 2 sets of students will travel, instead of putting students at schools near their neighborhoods."
Don't you know this has always bee the case in DCSS? I have lived one street from Briarlake ES since 1983 (less than 1/2 mile). The street behind our street (1/2 mile from Briarlake) has been zoned into Henderson Mill since at least 1983 when we moved here almost 30 years ago. That's how long it's been since they rezoned our area. They have busing students to Henderson Mill who could walk in ten minutes to Briarlake for over 30 years - stupid, stupid, and costly. Same thing with the area two streets to the north of my house. Those kids are even nearer to Briarlake than we are! The point is - this is not new, and it's the "DeKalb Way" and it's stupid.
Look at Medlock. Willivee is one street from Medlock. The children on the side of Willivee nearest to Medlock go to Medlock. The children on the other side of the street (10 ft. further from Medlock) are bused to Fernbank. One street from Medlock (5 minute walk) and they spend 20 to 25 minutes being bused to Fernbank. Again - stupid and costly.
This is ridiculous. My area and the Fernbank area should have been rezoned long ago and every 3 years after that - like Gwinnett and every other county does. We act like putting buses on the road cost us nothing.
Those Fernbank kids that could walk to Medlock should have gone to Medlock years ago, and Henderson Mill kids who could walk to Briarlake should have been zoned into Briarlake.
Politics has played too big a part - especially when schools are perceived as unequal.
Cut the $10,000,000 non-teaching Instructional coaches, cut the $10,000,000 ineffective scripted learning programs, cut the redundant multi-million dollar parent centers, reduce the over payment of thousands of admin and support personnel, outsource custodians, MIS, Security, landscaping, etc. - whatever it takes to ensure schools offer similar services with reasonable class sizes. Then rezone and rezone often to keep costs down. Gwinnett, Forsyth and other fiscally responsible systems do this and we can too.
"Lakeside is 1 mile from the Sagamore Hills neighborhood, on residential streets, but Druid Hills is 6 or 7 miles away on heavily congested major throughfares leading to an Emory-clogged island."
"That has happened in my super cluster too, leaving 2 schools outside of 285 still districted to Lakeside that is 7 miles away, while moving students from a school 1 mile away to another one 6 miles away. Now 2 sets of students will travel, instead of putting students at schools near their neighborhoods."
I appreciate this issue, but this poster does not consider the whole picture. Nor are the mileages given completely correct. Both HS and MS need to be considered in these decsions. Thus, kids districted to Lakeside are also districted to Henderson Middle.
So, both distances need to be considered. For example, while Sagamore ES is about 1 mile from Lakeside it is about 5 miles from Henderson MS (and ~4.5 miles from Druid Hills HS). Conversely, Evansdale ES(one of the 2 schools cited in the earlier post)is only 1 mile from Henderson MS and 4 miles from Lakeside. And for many families in the Evansdale attendace zones, these distances are even shorter. Tucker Middle School is more than 4 miles away for nearly all Evansdale families and so is Tucker HS for a fairly large proportion.
Anyway, these things are always hard. But, since Henderson MS is linked to Lakeside HS, you have to consider both schools in terms of what makes sense for the attendance zone. I'm not saying there's not validity to the Sagamore claim to Lakeside district, but certainly no more than the Evansdale claim.
"Both HS and MS need to be considered in these decsions. Thus, kids districted to Lakeside are also districted to Henderson Middle."
Why does it HAVE to be this way? I have never encountered a school district where the middle shcool and high school were the same group of kids, just in a different building. In most cases, a number of elementary schools mix into a middle school, then a few middle schools mix into a high school.
I'm new to this district (and what a time to enter it!), but I don't understand why it has to be this way - if the "linked" middlle school and high school are nowhere near each other it makes no sense. Square peg, round whole.
This year there were budgeted 50 extra magnet points for all the magnet programs. It doesn't sound like a lot unless you were a student at an elementary school with no music teacher.
FWIW - a "point" equates to a teacher. So that means the magnets got 50 extra teachers. If they had the FTE credits (gifted students garner more credits than regular ed students) then that number is a wash, but if the bump is being funded with local money - that's a problem for regular schools (money is taken from the DCSS general fund instead of state reimbursements).
Also, regarding the budgeting - we often refer to teachers as costing $65,000 each per year. That number came from Dr. Lewis - it's how he budgeted for teachers. That is not the average salary - that's the average cost for a teacher - salary, benefits, pension contribution, insurance, etc.
To the poster who wondered if the money saved by closing say, Kittredge would not help the rest of the schools - think about it - wouldn't 50 teachers dispersed around the county help out gifted students in home schools? Wouldn't the science teachers holed up at Fernbank help out regular high school science instruction if they were dispersed among them and provided consistent daily instruction as a full-time classroom teacher? Why are we cocooning our best resources? Why are we not sending out those resources to where the needs are?
According to the October FTE reports, Kittredge has 415 students - below the the 450 needed for the state to fund "specials", p.e., music, band, etc.,
However, KMS has a PE teacher, Art Teacher, Band Teacher, Orchestra Teacher and 2 Foreign Language Teachers.
How, you might ask? They got 6 extra points for having gifted status.
That's fair to those students who have no specials whatsoever in their school?
Dunwoody Mom,
That isn't quite accurate. The 6 extra points are locally funded magnet points.
The extra points for using a gifted model are absorbed by the smaller class size.
Thanks for the clarification, but it still points out the fact of unequal offerings in our schools.
That's true - DSA got 7. We were just discussing this on the other thread - check out the numbers -
Questions regarding the redistricting plans
Cere, if Kittredge closed, those students would be absorbed back into their home schools, and all of those teachers would just lose their jobs. Those teachers would not follow the students b/c they would be too widely distributed. 2-3 kids per grade means 6-9 kids return to each home school. So, yes, it would save money because there was no longer a Kittredge building to maintain, but it would not equate to raising the educational experience at the home school. Principals have carte blanche with their points, and when a school has a small proportion of gifted, their money goes elsewhere. If each school got 6-9 students (not all gifted) back into their population, that would not affect the dollars that much, and it would not significantly improve anything for the home school.
So what should we do about those labeled gifted who did not win a seat in the Kittredge lottery?
@ 6:24
Not true. Each child that is identified gifted must receive services. Nno exceptions, no exclusions if your school system receives state funds. Please reference the state regulations for Gifted Ed.
Dunwoody Mom at 4:43: Are there really DCSS elementary schools with no specials whatsoever? Which ones are they? I find it hard to believe but would appreciate the information if you have it.
"Cere, if Kittredge closed, those students would be absorbed back into their home schools, and all of those teachers would just lose their jobs.'
No. We have such attrition in the grade level and content area teachers who teach math, science, social studies and language arts to students that they would find positions. Would they be in a school like Kittrege? No. But they would be teaching students in the content areas.
So let me get this straight their going to uproot me from my school to take me to a school even farther from where i live.... for what purpose??? And on top of that they don't even provide bus transportation to SWD so is that included in this plan? Smh i'm better off getting outta magnet and going to resident this isn't worth it.
COLUMBIA HIGH SCHOOL, Post 1
Did brand-new principal Uras Agee III use special education funds to hire a female as a paraprofessional and now use her as the front office secretary? Is a principal required to have special education paraprofessials work in special ed classrooms?
Just imagine if we had a voucher system with an audit component (by selected auditors who could not be "friends and family"). Things of this nature couldn't happen for very long... they would be caught and people would vote with their feet and dollars. It would take much more cooperation between many more levels for any real mass corruption to occur -- the schools would have to be much more streamlined to have the parents turn their vouchers over to them, particularly with things like to blog checking up on them.... just think about what it would take to embezzle the money out of the schoolhouse with that type of system.....
@6:38 My child attends a DCSS elementary school right now that does not serve its gifted kids. If you read the state and county regulations carefully, there are several models that can be followed. The "easiest" or one with least effort required is that the gifted child is in a classroom with a gifted classroom teacher and the teacher differentiates the work for the gifted student in the midst of the regular classes. This is the option our school has chosen, as there is no dedicated gifted specialist due to the low number of gifted children in the school. Do you really think anything is being differentiated? Absolutely not. And this is supposed to be a pretty good school. Even regulations and laws do not mean a lot to some administrators in this county.
@ 8:17 My point in talking about those teachers was that, even if they are gifted certified teachers, they would not go back into the non-magnet school population and serve the gifted. Closing Kittredge and thinking that those gifted teachers will go out into the county and be gifted-only teachers is not going to happen, so it will not solve the problem of the lack of gifted services. Yes, most of those teachers would probably get regular classroom jobs as a result of attrition, but their being placed in regular classroom jobs would not do anything to resolve the gifted child not receiving services, as Cere keeps talking about.
A few years ago, Vanderlyn went to the push in model, the one with the gifted certified teacher and differentiated instruction. The insturction wasn't being differentiated and a complaint with the state was filed. Vanderlyn had to rework its gifted instruction.
If you have already spoken to the principal and nothing has changed, file a complaint with the state.
Annette Eger
Program Specialist for Gifted Education
1766 Twin Towers East
205 Jesse Hill Jr. Drive SE
Atlanta, GA 30334
(404) 657-0182
aeger@doe.k12.ga.us
COLUMBIA HIGH SCHOOL, Post 1
Did brand-new principal Uras Agee III use special education funds to hire a female as a paraprofessional and now use her as the front office secretary? Is a principal required to have special education paraprofessials work in special ed classrooms?
The principal cannot do this, if it is true.
@9:29 Complain to the STATE DOE. Ask them to investigate.
One other bad thing about returning Nancy Creek as its own school and moving the 180 kids out of Montgomery. Both schools lose. The combined Montgomery/Nancy Creek school (housed at Montgomery)has become a school that rivals Vanderlyn and Austin in our end of the county. It is arguably one of the "hottest" schools in growth which has resulted in it now becoming "overcrowded" by about 30 students. The school is really clicking and now they will split it and combine both schools with different neighborhoods (Huntley Hills, Ashford Park) and really disrupt a lot of students. Makes more sense not to destroy a good thing.
Good points Anon. I hadn't really considered the middle and high school magnet consolidations thoroughly. It's very different from Kittredge and Wadsworth. DSA is different altogether as they do have their very own principal and full staff - they don't share staff with Avondale, even though they share the building.
Anon 947
But without Nancy Creek, Montgomery will become unbearably overcrowded.
And that is a problem. Montgomery is land locked and on a busy street. What is happening there, in terms of growth, isn't sustainable.
All kids will be running society in the future. If they have no education and no job skills - they will most likely become criminals -- we need to educate them. Conversely, our gifted kids are who are most likely going to be our doctors, lawyers, politicians, engineers, ceos and other business leaders. They may also be the unibomber and that other serial killer who was ivy league educated. It is important that we educate them properly so that when we are all old and grey we have the vast majority of these kids doing things that are productive and useful -- that we will want them to be doing when we can't be doing them for them -- they will need to be doing for us and for their children. Georgia, believe it or not, has some of the best laws and provisions for gifted education in the country. If your school is not giving your child what they are qualified for in gifted education so your child grows up to be a ceo or rocket scientist instead of the unibomber -- it is your right, duty and obligation to file a complaint with the apropriate state agency (info previously noted). Your school is getting money for your child for gifted services -- your child is entitled to receive those services. Your child's only advocate is you.
ps -- my largest problem with Kittredge and Wadsworth is that they are not gifted programs. They are not based on merit or the need of the underyling child -- they are based on a relatively low, "high achieving" test score that the vast majority of kids at any of our schools would qualify at and would benefit from. If the qualifier were to change to be merit based and it would be treated as a "Harvard" or public Westminster based on accpeting the top 150 applicants based solely on numbers (test scores) then it wouldn't seem so random and arbitrary and unfair and it is much more likely that the entire population of the school would qualify for the extra gifted funding. this is the way it was initially set up (with a racial component as well that at this point is mooted by the Supreme Court's decision declaring DCSS unified -- DCSS is only, at best, 10% white) and this is the way the vast majority of similar "achievement" magnets work throughout the country (and I'm still unconvinced that there are very many at the elementary level and I challenge you to actaually name the elementary programs that are similar -- I know of the one in Manahattan & it is based on raw IQ 99.9th percentile down to about 97th starting with admission in kindergarten).
"If the two elementary magnet schools and the two middle school magnets are combined only one principal will become redundant since the two middle school principals will still have their resident schools. "
There are an astounding number of non-teaching positions:
CTSS, PE teachers, foreign language, nurses, bookkeepers, custodians, cafeteria workers, Assistant Principals, counselors, etc.
Millions of dollars in non-teaching redundant personnel.
Why is it that teachers who actually - uh - teach our children math, science, social studies, and science - 99.9% of the content we send our kids to school to learn are asked to take on more responsibilities, yet we do not cut non-teaching positions and ask these personnel to take on more responsibility?
Since I am assuming a parent or adult wrote "There are an astounding number of non-teaching positions:
CTSS, PE teachers, foreign language, nurses, bookkeepers, custodians, cafeteria workers, Assistant Principals, counselors, etc.", I would assume that this person has INFECTED his/her child with the notion that PE and Foreign Language ARE NOT teachers.
Reminds me when my middle school child was speaking ill of his worthless social studies teacher last year. Confronted, he explained that the teacher was only a teacher because he could not be a physician like mom or dad. Were did he get this idea, I asked? From sleeping over at a fellow physician house... Of course I explained that it was mom and I who were the physicians and that until achieve the level of education of his teachers it would in his best interest to reserve his silly observations.
If we hold our teachers in such low regard, how in the dickens do we expect the kids to learn from them?
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